Yaesu FT-450

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Use in commercial app?

Is HamLib usable in a commercial application?

Jeremy
KB8LFA

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Re: Use in commercial app?

KB8LFA wrote:
> Is HamLib usable in a commercial application?
> 
> Jeremy
> KB8LFA
> 
>

Yes, with restrictions.  The code (for the most part) is distributed 
under the LGPL, the GNU "Lesser General Public License".  Read about the 
LGPL at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html .

Questions to developers:  Some Hamlib modules are marked as distributed 
under the GPLv2, which is more restrictive.  Does that affect the 
licensing of the library?

The GPL modules I find include /gnuradio/*.c, /tuner/v4l.c, 
/kit/elektor304.c, microtune/module_*.c

73 Martin AA6E

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Re: Use in commercial app?

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:02:05 -0400 Martin AA6E <aa6e <at> ewing.homedns.org>
wrote:
> KB8LFA wrote:
> > Is HamLib usable in a commercial application?
> > 
> 
> Yes, with restrictions.  The code (for the most part) is distributed 
> under the LGPL, the GNU "Lesser General Public License".  Read about
> the LGPL at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html .

If I remember well, the intention from the developer side was that
hamlib should be LGPL to allow use in commercial apps.

> Questions to developers:  Some Hamlib modules are marked as
> distributed under the GPLv2, which is more restrictive.  Does that
> affect the licensing of the library?
>
> The GPL modules I find include /gnuradio/*.c, /tuner/v4l.c, 
> /kit/elektor304.c, microtune/module_*.c

I'm no lawyer (nor will I ever be) but I think this is in conflict with
hamlib's LPGL, i.e. the app can not be non-GPL if it links against a
hamlib containing the GPL backends. However, a hamlib without the GPL
backends can surely be LGPL without any conflicts.

In my understanding of the GPL, you can use GPL code in a
commercial non-GPL app developed for a customer if you agree with the
customer that the app will not be distributed (i.e. it will only be
used by the customer). It is first when the app is distributed in one
way or the other that the GPL forces you to release your source code.

> 73 Martin AA6E
> 

73
Alex OZ9AEC

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Re: Use in commercial app?

My particular question was whether _parts of hamlib itself_ (e.g. 
gnuradio drivers) can have GPL when hamlib itself (the library) 
advertises LGPL.  Maybe GPL stuff should be distributed separately?  Or 
maybe the author(s) would consent to changing to LGPL? I am also not a 
lawyer!

You are right AFAIK about applications written against hamlib.

73 Martin AA6E

Alexandru Csete wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:02:05 -0400 Martin AA6E <aa6e <at> ewing.homedns.org>
> wrote:
>> KB8LFA wrote:
>>> Is HamLib usable in a commercial application?
>>>
>> Yes, with restrictions.  The code (for the most part) is distributed 
>> under the LGPL, the GNU "Lesser General Public License".  Read about
>> the LGPL at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl.html .
> 
> If I remember well, the intention from the developer side was that
> hamlib should be LGPL to allow use in commercial apps.
> 
>> Questions to developers:  Some Hamlib modules are marked as
>> distributed under the GPLv2, which is more restrictive.  Does that
>> affect the licensing of the library?
>>
>> The GPL modules I find include /gnuradio/*.c, /tuner/v4l.c, 
>> /kit/elektor304.c, microtune/module_*.c
> 
> I'm no lawyer (nor will I ever be) but I think this is in conflict with
> hamlib's LPGL, i.e. the app can not be non-GPL if it links against a
> hamlib containing the GPL backends. However, a hamlib without the GPL
> backends can surely be LGPL without any conflicts.
> 
> In my understanding of the GPL, you can use GPL code in a
> commercial non-GPL app developed for a customer if you agree with the
> customer that the app will not be distributed (i.e. it will only be
> used by the customer). It is first when the app is distributed in one
> way or the other that the GPL forces you to release your source code.
> 
> 
>> 73 Martin AA6E
>>
> 
> 73
> Alex OZ9AEC
> 
> 
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> Hamlib-developer mailing list
> Hamlib-developer <at> lists.sourceforge.net
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Re: Use in commercial app?

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:37:15 -0400 Martin AA6E <aa6e <at> ewing.homedns.org>
wrote:
> My particular question was whether _parts of hamlib itself_ (e.g. 
> gnuradio drivers) can have GPL when hamlib itself (the library) 
> advertises LGPL.  Maybe GPL stuff should be distributed separately?
> Or maybe the author(s) would consent to changing to LGPL? I am also
> not a lawyer!
> 

I wasn't quite clear in my previous answer.
I think that it is the other way around, i.e. if there is GPL code in
hamlib, hamlib as a whole can not be LGPL since hamlib interface
loads and calls the backends.

Now, I believe the question is even more complicated because the
backends are loaded dynamically at run-time. Therefore, can we say that
a commercial app that does not use/load the GPL backends only uses the
LGPL part of hamlib? Maybe the GPL and LGPL licenses have an answer to
this.

I think that the best solution would be to try to find the authors of
the respective backends and ask for their consent to change the
backend to LGPL.

> You are right AFAIK about applications written against hamlib.
> 
> 73 Martin AA6E
> 

73
Alex OZ9AEC

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Re: Use in commercial app?

Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 10:44:43PM +0200, Alexandru Csete wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:37:15 -0400 Martin AA6E <aa6e <at> ewing.homedns.org>
> wrote:
> > My particular question was whether _parts of hamlib itself_ (e.g. 
> > gnuradio drivers) can have GPL when hamlib itself (the library) 
> > advertises LGPL.  Maybe GPL stuff should be distributed separately?

The core of Hamlib (frontend) is distributed under LGPL. The backends of
Hamlib are distributed under various licenses (LGPL, GPL, maybe other).
The license is publicised by the (misnamed) caps field .copyright.

In a way, the GPL stuff is already distributed separately, thanks to the
plugin approach. BTW, the GPL'd backends inherited the GPL either from the
library they link against (e.g. gnuradio, ..) or because they borrowed
(derived work) code from GPL code.

> > Or maybe the author(s) would consent to changing to LGPL? I am also
> > not a lawyer!

Or the code can be re-written (cleanroom is best) ?
Or the commercial application can be turned to GPL 
Read the GPL carefully, only the *customer* of the commercial application 
can require the sources (and build environnement), which is still fair.

Disclaimer: me too, I am no a lawyer!

Rem: all the code written from scratch in Hamlib copyrighted by me is 
distributed under LGPL.

> I wasn't quite clear in my previous answer.
> I think that it is the other way around, i.e. if there is GPL code in
> hamlib, hamlib as a whole can not be LGPL since hamlib interface
> loads and calls the backends.

Right. If the program makes use of at least one GPL backend, then the
program has to comply with GPL. However, if the program only makes
use of LGPL or free-of-use backends, then the program need only honor
the LGPL. Keep in mind that backends are *plugins*. If one plugin
is incompatible license-wise with your program (or your country
regulation, etc.), then you MUST remove that plugin so Hamlib
won't use it.

> Now, I believe the question is even more complicated because the
> backends are loaded dynamically at run-time. Therefore, can we say that
> a commercial app that does not use/load the GPL backends only uses the
> LGPL part of hamlib? Maybe the GPL and LGPL licenses have an answer to
> this.

Indeed. If the commercial app does not use/load the GPL backends (plugins)
then the commercial application only need to comply with the LGPL.

For example, the "G8JCF's Software Defined Radio"[1] which is not
commercial but apparently is still a closed source program, is making use 
of Hamlib. This is permitted by the LGPL. I secretly hope that those people
that are having free food, will one day contribute back, at least 
for the Hamlib project: patches, hosting, user support, did I mentionned
patches?...
[1] http://www.g8jcf.dyndns.org/

BTW, what kind of commercial application is this about?

73
--

-- 
Stephane - F8CFE

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Re: Use in commercial app?

While we use the word "plug-in", I'm not sure that makes a difference 
for licensing.  We distribute a complete software package (a tar file or 
whatever), and there has to be a license attached to it.  That license 
can't (as I understand it, IANAL) be less restrictive than the license 
of the most restricted component.

If we distributed a standard "hamlib" with optional add-on GPL 
"hamlib-extra", I think that would allow for the different license 
levels.  ** If it's a real problem. **

I notice that the website only talks about GPL licensing and not LGPL. 
(www.hamlib.org) The source files (mostly) have the LGPL notice.  I can 
update the web if/when we are all on the same page here, so to speak.

73 Martin AA6E

Stephane Fillod wrote:
> Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 10:44:43PM +0200, Alexandru Csete wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:37:15 -0400 Martin AA6E <aa6e <at> ewing.homedns.org>
>> wrote:
>>> My particular question was whether _parts of hamlib itself_ (e.g. 
>>> gnuradio drivers) can have GPL when hamlib itself (the library) 
>>> advertises LGPL.  Maybe GPL stuff should be distributed separately?
> 
> The core of Hamlib (frontend) is distributed under LGPL. The backends of
> Hamlib are distributed under various licenses (LGPL, GPL, maybe other).
> The license is publicised by the (misnamed) caps field .copyright.
> 
> In a way, the GPL stuff is already distributed separately, thanks to the
> plugin approach. BTW, the GPL'd backends inherited the GPL either from the
> library they link against (e.g. gnuradio, ..) or because they borrowed
> (derived work) code from GPL code.
> 
>>> Or maybe the author(s) would consent to changing to LGPL? I am also
>>> not a lawyer!
> 
> Or the code can be re-written (cleanroom is best) ?
> Or the commercial application can be turned to GPL 
> Read the GPL carefully, only the *customer* of the commercial application 
> can require the sources (and build environnement), which is still fair.
> 
> Disclaimer: me too, I am no a lawyer!
> 
> Rem: all the code written from scratch in Hamlib copyrighted by me is 
> distributed under LGPL.
> 
>> I wasn't quite clear in my previous answer.
>> I think that it is the other way around, i.e. if there is GPL code in
>> hamlib, hamlib as a whole can not be LGPL since hamlib interface
>> loads and calls the backends.
> 
> Right. If the program makes use of at least one GPL backend, then the
> program has to comply with GPL. However, if the program only makes
> use of LGPL or free-of-use backends, then the program need only honor
> the LGPL. Keep in mind that backends are *plugins*. If one plugin
> is incompatible license-wise with your program (or your country
> regulation, etc.), then you MUST remove that plugin so Hamlib
> won't use it.
> 
>> Now, I believe the question is even more complicated because the
>> backends are loaded dynamically at run-time. Therefore, can we say that
>> a commercial app that does not use/load the GPL backends only uses the
>> LGPL part of hamlib? Maybe the GPL and LGPL licenses have an answer to
>> this.
> 
> Indeed. If the commercial app does not use/load the GPL backends (plugins)
> then the commercial application only need to comply with the LGPL.
> 
> For example, the "G8JCF's Software Defined Radio"[1] which is not
> commercial but apparently is still a closed source program, is making use 
> of Hamlib. This is permitted by the LGPL. I secretly hope that those people
> that are having free food, will one day contribute back, at least 
> for the Hamlib project: patches, hosting, user support, did I mentionned
> patches?...
> [1] http://www.g8jcf.dyndns.org/
> 
> BTW, what kind of commercial application is this about?
> 
> 73

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th-g71A

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web page - licensing

A licensing section has been added to the web site www.hamlib.org.  It 
just refers to LGPL being on most files, but the GPL being on some.  A 
prospective user who is concerned with licensing will have to sort out 
the two types of files, I suppose.  It would be good if we could make it 
simpler my going to 100% LGPL or by making a separate optional add-on 
package containing only the GPL stuff.

There is more updating needed on the web.  Hopefully, that will happen 
before long.

73 Martin AA6E

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