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Thorsten Roggendorf | 3 Feb 2005 12:39
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Installation handbook

Hi

I have just started installing gentoo (I don't even have a working
gentoo system yet). But I have some comments on the handbook regarding
the stuff I already did.

The handbook is so well written, it might be possible to install gentoo
even for people who only have basic *nix knowledge. Great job! I'll try
to take that approach in my comments, too.

I don't think it matters much but here are my starting parameters:
I have 6 years user experience with linux, 5 of those with debian.
The system I was now installing is an amd64 and I was installing
that same gentoo port.

Installing gentoo takes a long time if you do it the first time. I read
the handbook while doing the installation step by step. Before
configuring the kernel my time was up and I had to stop the
installation. I had to turn off the computer. I think it could be useful
to assist new users with such suspended installations.
In section 1a after the 10 step list write: {

Depending on your choices, the installation of gentoo can take a long
time. You might choose to do in two or more sessions. If you leave your
computer running, that is no problem, you can just continue where you
left. If that is no option for you however, you have to repeat certain
steps before you can continue (you will not have to do everything
again). First you will have to do everything upto section 4 again. Don't
worry though, if you eg. chose the liveCD you just have to boot it,
maybe put some drivers into the kernel and configure the network. In
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Sven Vermeulen | 3 Feb 2005 18:30
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Re: Installation handbook

On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 12:39:13PM +0100, Thorsten Roggendorf wrote:
> The handbook is so well written, it might be possible to install gentoo
> even for people who only have basic *nix knowledge. Great job! I'll try
> to take that approach in my comments, too.

Thanks :)

> Installing gentoo takes a long time if you do it the first time. I read
> the handbook while doing the installation step by step. Before
> configuring the kernel my time was up and I had to stop the
> installation. I had to turn off the computer. I think it could be useful
> to assist new users with such suspended installations.
> In section 1a after the 10 step list write: {
[...]

I hope to keep the instructions in the single flow they're written now,
without going into details about possible deviations. I have written a small
text on resuming an installation, originally intended for broken
installations, but also 100% useable for interrupted installations.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-tipsntricks.xml#recover

> Partitioning:
> I personally think fdisk is a pain in the ... I chose cfdisk which was
> available on my livecd. I think an according  hint in the handbook might
> improve the experience for some users.

Actually I'm hoping that the installation instructions (the "current"
branch) get modified to use cfdisk instead of fdisk. Unless I'm mistaken,
cfdisk creates better partition tables than fdisk and is supported on all
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Jan Kundrát | 3 Feb 2005 21:00
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Re: Installation handbook

Sven Vermeulen wrote:
>>Setting the date/time: is it a good idea to set the date before choosing
>>the time zone? 
> 
> 
> Hrmpf, never crossed my mind. It doesn't hurt, but perhaps one needs to
> reset the date/time afterwards again. I'll check this out later.

IMHO the easiest way is to setup timezone information (/etc/localtime) 
and then set date.

-jkt

--

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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gentoo-doc <at> gentoo.org mailing list
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Stuart Longland | 4 Feb 2005 02:28

Re: Installation handbook

Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 12:39:13PM +0100, Thorsten Roggendorf wrote:
 >
>>Partitioning:
>>I personally think fdisk is a pain in the ... I chose cfdisk which was
>>available on my livecd. I think an according  hint in the handbook might
>>improve the experience for some users.
>
>
> Actually I'm hoping that the installation instructions (the "current"
> branch) get modified to use cfdisk instead of fdisk. Unless I'm mistaken,
> cfdisk creates better partition tables than fdisk and is supported on all
> platforms (and even if it isn't, it's not that bad, since those instructions
> are architecture-specific).
>

Unfortunately this isn't the case.

root <at> indy root# fdisk -l /dev/sda

Disk /dev/sda (SGI disk label): 64 heads, 32 sectors, 8748 cylenders
Units = cylenders of 2048 * 512 bytes

----- partitions -----
Pt#     Device  Info     Start        End   Sectors  Id  System
  1:  /dev/sda1  boot        51        101    104448  83  Linux native
  2:  /dev/sda2  swap       102        358    526336  82  Linux swap
  3:  /dev/sda3             359       8747  17180672  83  Linux native
  9:  /dev/sda4               0         50    104448   0  SGI volhdr
11:  /dev/sda5               0       8747  17180672   6  SGI volume
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Thorsten Roggendorf | 4 Feb 2005 14:05
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Installation handbook part II

Hi

Meanwhile I got my gentoo system running. It's a downright spiritual
experience to type
emerge gnome
and the next morning have all the binaries on the hd. Free software
keeps surprising me. Gentoo does an amazing job.

So this is the second part of my comments on the gentoo installation
handbook. I'll start where I left last time, i.e.

Kernel configuration:
I understand that a comprehensive documentation of kernel configuration
is completely out of the scope of the handbook. I also understand that
compiling your own kernel is a question of honor for many gentoo users.
But. As I said in my first email it looks as if even users with basic
linux knowledge could install gentoo with the outstanding handbook. I
think the kernel section is a show stopper in that regard. It does not
even mention that one should set the architecture according to the cpu
of the system. I don't think it should. Kernel configuration took me
almost an hour even though I did it dozens of times before. It always
takes me that long when I start from a virgin .config. I check all the
options and read many help entries for options I don't know or forgot
about. You cannot train novices in kernel configuration. It's no arcane
art but it takes time and reading.
I would suggest making genkernel the default and improve the
documentation of adding modules. And I'd strip the manual configuration
part and provide an external link. It's mostly useless anyway. You have
to be very lucky or margnally experienced in kernel configuration to get
anything from it.
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Herbert Szumovski | 4 Feb 2005 14:52
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Re: Installation handbook - genkernel

At 14:05 04.02.2005, Thorsten Roggendorf wrote:
>I would suggest making genkernel the default and improve the
>documentation of adding modules. And I'd strip the manual configuration
>part and provide an external link. It's mostly useless anyway. You have
>to be very lucky or margnally experienced in kernel configuration to get
>anything from it.

I can only second that. Make genkernel the default, but
remind people that there is a "genkernel --menuconfig" option,
so that they can (and should) still modify their Gentoo kernel,
also when they use genkernel.
I NEVER use the non-genkernel kernel compilation anymore.

Cheers, Herbert 

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Herbert Szumovski | 4 Feb 2005 15:08
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Re: Installation handbook boot loader

At 14:05 04.02.2005, Thorsten Roggendorf wrote:
>Grub:

BOOT-loader:
I know that traditionalists will possibly flame me because of
that :-) , but:
I would remove LILO completely. It had it's time 10 years
ago, but it's really bad compared to GRUB, I skipped it years ago
when I heard about GRUB for the first time.
GRUB is a lot less dangerous and a lot more flexible than LILO,
and every newbie should use it.  It doesn't make sense for a
LINUX beginner to install LILO (well, I believe it doesn't make
sense for anybody, but that's another story :-) ).

Cheers, Herbert

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Chris Gianelloni | 4 Feb 2005 15:30
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Re: Installation handbook part II

On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 14:05 +0100, Thorsten Roggendorf wrote:
> Kernel configuration:
> I understand that a comprehensive documentation of kernel configuration
> is completely out of the scope of the handbook. I also understand that
> compiling your own kernel is a question of honor for many gentoo users.
> But. As I said in my first email it looks as if even users with basic
> linux knowledge could install gentoo with the outstanding handbook. I
> think the kernel section is a show stopper in that regard. It does not

genkernel all

It is documented quite well and is the recommended path for someone
unfamiliar with kernel configuration.

> even mention that one should set the architecture according to the cpu
> of the system. I don't think it should. Kernel configuration took me
> almost an hour even though I did it dozens of times before. It always
> takes me that long when I start from a virgin .config. I check all the
> options and read many help entries for options I don't know or forgot
> about. You cannot train novices in kernel configuration. It's no arcane
> art but it takes time and reading.

Kernels can be a serious PITA.

> I would suggest making genkernel the default and improve the
> documentation of adding modules. And I'd strip the manual configuration
> part and provide an external link. It's mostly useless anyway. You have
> to be very lucky or margnally experienced in kernel configuration to get
> anything from it.
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Chris Gianelloni | 4 Feb 2005 15:39
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Re: Installation handbook boot loader

On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 15:08 +0100, Herbert Szumovski wrote:
> I would remove LILO completely. It had it's time 10 years
> ago, but it's really bad compared to GRUB, I skipped it years ago
> when I heard about GRUB for the first time.

No way.

My girlfriend recently performed a Gentoo install all on her own.  She
didn't want my help and followed the Handbook.  After 4 hours of trying
to get grub to actually boot her machine, she asked me for help.  Even
with the help of both myself and plasmaroo (the genkernel maintainer),
we were unable to get her machine booting using grub.

She got lilo working in 2 minutes.

> GRUB is a lot less dangerous and a lot more flexible than LILO,
> and every newbie should use it.  It doesn't make sense for a
> LINUX beginner to install LILO (well, I believe it doesn't make
> sense for anybody, but that's another story :-) ).

I agree with you that grub is the better solution, but I definitely
think we should keep the lilo instructions, not only for completeness,
but also for those that have problems getting grub working.

--

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux
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Thorsten Roggendorf | 4 Feb 2005 15:54
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Re: Installation handbook part II

Hi

> > If you cannot do that, I found the following things missing from the
> > instructions:
> > 
> > architecture!
> 
> Listed in Chapter 7, Code Listing 7.

I looked it up, you are right - regarding x86. In the handbook for my
architecture amd64 (where selecting the right architecture matters, for
x86 the default will work most of the time) it's missing!!!

> What would really be nice here would be an external link to a page that
> has a matrix of NICs to drivers, as that seems to be a big stumbling
> block for many users.

For amd64 I can recommend
https://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/27/mainboards.html

> > hard disk (many modern systems have serial ata, but the handbook should
> > at least mentioning ata, scsi and sata)
> 
> About the only thing that really needs to be mentioned is that proper
> SATA support is done via the SCSI interface, not the IDE one.

Right, but that should be mentioned.

> > fs localization (people from non english countries who copy their files
> > to their new gentoo system might loose data otherwise and only discover
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