Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

Automated Package Removal and Addition Tracker, for the week ending 2011-07-31 23h59 UTC

The attached list notes all of the packages that were added or removed
from the tree, for the week ending 2011-07-31 23h59 UTC.

Removals:
dev-lang/ekopath-bin               	2011-07-25 18:27:17	xarthisius
x11-themes/mythtv-themes-extra     	2011-07-28 21:02:05	cardoe
media-plugins/mythflix             	2011-07-28 21:06:29	cardoe
media-libs/libkmap                 	2011-07-29 19:15:48	dilfridge

Additions:
dev-libs/gecode                    	2011-07-25 08:33:42	hollow
dev-ruby/dep_selector              	2011-07-25 08:38:10	hollow
dev-ruby/fast_xs                   	2011-07-25 08:56:25	hollow
dev-ruby/amqp                      	2011-07-25 08:58:40	hollow
app-admin/chef-expander            	2011-07-25 09:11:46	hollow
dev-python/libcloud                	2011-07-25 15:57:56	patrick
dev-lang/ekopath                   	2011-07-25 18:25:29	xarthisius
sec-policy/selinux-gpg             	2011-07-25 22:49:21	blueness
sec-policy/selinux-haveged         	2011-07-25 22:58:54	blueness
sec-policy/selinux-nginx           	2011-07-25 23:06:58	blueness
media-gfx/graphite2                	2011-07-26 19:02:19	scarabeus
dev-python/pyamg                   	2011-07-26 19:09:17	bicatali
app-text/wpd2odt                   	2011-07-27 10:48:04	scarabeus
kde-base/kde-wallpapers            	2011-07-27 14:04:25	alexxy
kde-base/korundum                  	2011-07-27 14:04:26	alexxy
kde-base/smokegen                  	2011-07-27 14:04:27	alexxy
kde-base/smokeqt                   	2011-07-27 14:04:29	alexxy
kde-base/konq-plugins              	2011-07-27 14:04:30	alexxy
kde-base/qtruby                    	2011-07-27 14:04:31	alexxy
kde-base/qyoto                     	2011-07-27 14:04:32	alexxy
kde-base/kimono                    	2011-07-27 14:04:32	alexxy
kde-base/smokekde                  	2011-07-27 14:04:32	alexxy
kde-base/perlqt                    	2011-07-27 14:04:34	alexxy
kde-base/krossruby                 	2011-07-27 14:04:35	alexxy
kde-base/katepart                  	2011-07-27 14:04:37	alexxy
kde-base/perlkde                   	2011-07-27 14:04:42	alexxy
sci-mathematics/pari-data          	2011-07-27 19:03:15	bicatali
media-libs/libkface                	2011-07-27 19:53:57	dilfridge
net-misc/autoupnp                  	2011-07-27 20:08:52	mgorny
media-libs/libkmap                 	2011-07-27 20:12:57	dilfridge
media-libs/libmediawiki            	2011-07-27 20:16:26	dilfridge
net-firewall/ufw-frontends         	2011-07-28 07:20:19	pva
sys-devel/ucpp                     	2011-07-28 13:18:23	alexxy
sci-chemistry/ambertools           	2011-07-28 13:19:06	alexxy
media-plugins/gst-plugins-assrender	2011-07-29 07:41:42	leio
sci-chemistry/acpype               	2011-07-29 08:27:31	alexxy
dev-lang/path64                    	2011-07-29 17:40:49	xarthisius
media-libs/libkgeomap              	2011-07-29 19:13:27	dilfridge
dev-python/chameleon               	2011-07-29 23:59:01	rafaelmartins
dev-python/translationstring       	2011-07-30 00:41:22	rafaelmartins
dev-python/iso8601                 	2011-07-30 01:16:20	rafaelmartins
dev-python/colander                	2011-07-30 01:43:51	rafaelmartins
dev-python/peppercorn              	2011-07-30 01:57:57	rafaelmartins
dev-python/deform                  	2011-07-30 02:12:48	rafaelmartins
app-vim/csv                        	2011-07-30 20:32:54	radhermit
x11-drivers/afb-ucode              	2011-07-31 11:00:06	armin76
dev-java/commons-compress          	2011-07-31 14:21:09	tommy
dev-java/jbitcollider-core         	2011-07-31 14:53:59	tommy
dev-haskell/statevar               	2011-07-31 15:59:31	slyfox

--
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer
E-Mail     : robbat2 <at> gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

Removed Packages:
dev-lang/ekopath-bin,removed,xarthisius,2011-07-25 18:27:17
x11-themes/mythtv-themes-extra,removed,cardoe,2011-07-28 21:02:05
media-plugins/mythflix,removed,cardoe,2011-07-28 21:06:29
media-libs/libkmap,removed,dilfridge,2011-07-29 19:15:48
Added Packages:
dev-libs/gecode,added,hollow,2011-07-25 08:33:42
dev-ruby/dep_selector,added,hollow,2011-07-25 08:38:10
dev-ruby/fast_xs,added,hollow,2011-07-25 08:56:25
dev-ruby/amqp,added,hollow,2011-07-25 08:58:40
app-admin/chef-expander,added,hollow,2011-07-25 09:11:46
dev-python/libcloud,added,patrick,2011-07-25 15:57:56
dev-lang/ekopath,added,xarthisius,2011-07-25 18:25:29
sec-policy/selinux-gpg,added,blueness,2011-07-25 22:49:21
sec-policy/selinux-haveged,added,blueness,2011-07-25 22:58:54
sec-policy/selinux-nginx,added,blueness,2011-07-25 23:06:58
media-gfx/graphite2,added,scarabeus,2011-07-26 19:02:19
dev-python/pyamg,added,bicatali,2011-07-26 19:09:17
app-text/wpd2odt,added,scarabeus,2011-07-27 10:48:04
kde-base/kde-wallpapers,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:25
kde-base/korundum,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:26
kde-base/smokegen,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:27
kde-base/smokeqt,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:29
kde-base/konq-plugins,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:30
kde-base/qtruby,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:31
kde-base/qyoto,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:32
kde-base/kimono,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:32
kde-base/smokekde,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:32
kde-base/perlqt,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:34
kde-base/krossruby,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:35
kde-base/katepart,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:37
kde-base/perlkde,added,alexxy,2011-07-27 14:04:42
sci-mathematics/pari-data,added,bicatali,2011-07-27 19:03:15
media-libs/libkface,added,dilfridge,2011-07-27 19:53:57
net-misc/autoupnp,added,mgorny,2011-07-27 20:08:52
media-libs/libkmap,added,dilfridge,2011-07-27 20:12:57
media-libs/libmediawiki,added,dilfridge,2011-07-27 20:16:26
net-firewall/ufw-frontends,added,pva,2011-07-28 07:20:19
sys-devel/ucpp,added,alexxy,2011-07-28 13:18:23
sci-chemistry/ambertools,added,alexxy,2011-07-28 13:19:06
media-plugins/gst-plugins-assrender,added,leio,2011-07-29 07:41:42
sci-chemistry/acpype,added,alexxy,2011-07-29 08:27:31
dev-lang/path64,added,xarthisius,2011-07-29 17:40:49
media-libs/libkgeomap,added,dilfridge,2011-07-29 19:13:27
dev-python/chameleon,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-29 23:59:01
dev-python/translationstring,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-30 00:41:22
dev-python/iso8601,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-30 01:16:20
dev-python/colander,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-30 01:43:51
dev-python/peppercorn,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-30 01:57:57
dev-python/deform,added,rafaelmartins,2011-07-30 02:12:48
app-vim/csv,added,radhermit,2011-07-30 20:32:54
x11-drivers/afb-ucode,added,armin76,2011-07-31 11:00:06
dev-java/commons-compress,added,tommy,2011-07-31 14:21:09
dev-java/jbitcollider-core,added,tommy,2011-07-31 14:53:59
dev-haskell/statevar,added,slyfox,2011-07-31 15:59:31

Done.

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On 07/31/2011 02:22 PM, Kacper Kowalik wrote:
> W dniu 30.07.2011 15:55, Samuli Suominen pisze:
>> On 07/30/2011 01:46 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2011 10:27:27 +0300
>>> Samuli Suominen <ssuominen <at> gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>> Since running separate /usr without mounting it from initramfs on top
>>>> of / before init is and has been broken with udev for a long time
>>>> now[1][2][3]
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=364235
>>>> [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Move_all_to_.2Fusr
>>>> [3]
>>>> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/separate-usr-is-broken
>>>>
>>>> Can we warn users about not doing the separate /usr mistake in the
>>>> handbook?
>>>
>>> It's important to consider the timeline here. Separate /usr was
>>> accidentally broken by a sudden increase in dependencies from base
>>> system packages to desktopy things. It was only later that certain
>>> people decided that "oh, separate /usr is a bad idea anyway", and they
>>> did so because they couldn't figure out how to fix the mess they'd
>>> caused. This is very much a case of carelessly letting the horse escape
>>> and then trying to convince everyone that no-one needs a horse anyway...
>>>
>>
>> Someone mentioned NFS mount on /usr.  Do we have other reasons?  How
>> many users that might be?
> 
> That covers headless/diskless clusters and I suspect many people still
> do that.
> Cheers,
> Kacper
> 
> 

I haven't tested but it seems this is not a problem afterall:

USE="nbd" for dracut enables the NFS support:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Dracut/Options#NFS

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On 07/31/2011 05:23 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2011 16:55:23 +0300
> Samuli Suominen <ssuominen <at> gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>> I dislike the IUSE="+static" some packages are currently doing to
>> workaround this, instead of moving the needed shared libs to /
>>
>> I dislike the idea of pciutils and usbutils database(s) in
>> non-standard location in / to keep udev working
>>
>> I dislike the idea of moving libglib-2.0, libdbus-1, libdbus-glib-1,
>> and couple of dozen more libs to /
>>
>> I dislike the idea of maintaining and keeping track of the files in /
>> using files from /usr. Does any of the PMs have check for this, like
>> NEEDED entries? I can imagine this getting past the maintainers easily
>> otherwise
>>
>> Most likely still not seeing the full picture here, and just
>> scratching the surface...
>> Despite that, I don't have any strong opinion on any of this, just
>> need to know if I should start moving the files over
> 
> Honestly, I'd rather see system libs and apps being moved to /usr
> rather than the opposite. IMO the benefit of getting a clear tree is
> greater than benefits of having separate fs for 'system' and
> 'non-system' packages which actually tend to randomly depend one on
> another.

that's my impression now too since nobody has managed to provide useful
case for separate /usr, or they have been very vague like adding 1+1 on
/ and /usr filesystem sizes and counting the risk of corrupted
filesystem from that (one word: backup)
and even then they can go with dracut and have the initramfs mount the
/usr before init
dracut with it's externsive modules covers the other mentioned cases too

so pursuing for getting rid of shared/static -workarounds and / files
depending on /usr files constistency

not to mention avoiding moving a lot of files to / for pursuing that
otherwise

this is starting to look good:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Move_all_to_.2Fusr

> 
> What's the point of having shared /usr if you need to keep /bin, /lib,
> /sbin in sync anyway? And considering the above, the number of files to
> keep separate & synced is growing, and thus our potential / gets bigger
> and bigger.
> 

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

Samuli Suominen schrieb:

> that's my impression now too since nobody has managed to provide useful
> case for separate /usr, or they have been very vague like adding 1+1 on
> / and /usr filesystem sizes and counting the risk of corrupted
> filesystem from that (one word: backup)

Maybe I have to explain in more detail:
When is there a risk of data corruption involving /usr? For example,
when the filesystem which contains /usr is being written to while the
power fails or the kernel panics. But /usr is almost never written to,
it is the other directories like /home, /var or the upcoming /run.

Backup is orthogonal to this question.

Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyen

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:23:07 +0300
Samuli Suominen <ssuominen <at> gentoo.org> wrote:

> this is starting to look good:
> 
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove#Move_all_to_.2Fusr

Honestly, that seems like a poor draft to me. First of all, I don't see
a reason to move /sbin to /usr/bin instead of /usr/sbin.

Second of all, the benefits are much smaller if we still have to
symlink all the dirs. I'd rather keep /bin (and maybe /sbin) on rootfs,
and just symlink a few compat tools (like sh). Then we should start
looking heavily for unnecessarily hardcoded paths.

I don't think keeping /lib* is absolutely necessary. That one should be
pretty easy to move.

Of course, the largest problem is migrating existing systems with
split / and /usr.

--

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On 08/01/2011 10:45 AM, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Samuli Suominen schrieb:
> 
>> that's my impression now too since nobody has managed to provide useful
>> case for separate /usr, or they have been very vague like adding 1+1 on
>> / and /usr filesystem sizes and counting the risk of corrupted
>> filesystem from that (one word: backup)
> 
> Maybe I have to explain in more detail:
> When is there a risk of data corruption involving /usr? For example,
> when the filesystem which contains /usr is being written to while the
> power fails or the kernel panics. But /usr is almost never written to,
> it is the other directories like /home, /var or the upcoming /run.
> 
> Backup is orthogonal to this question.

should think this inverse; make separate partitions for the data
directories such as /home or /var
have /usr on /
so when / goes down, you still keep your data

right?

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

Samuli Suominen schrieb:
> should think this inverse; make separate partitions for the data
> directories such as /home or /var
> have /usr on /
> so when / goes down, you still keep your data

Putting /home and /var on separate partitions can increase isolation
even further, that is true.

On desktop systems, directories outside /usr and /home contribute not
much to the total disk space used. So if you have one / and one /usr
partition, the total amount of data that would be exposed to corruption
is not much different from having all of /, /home, /usr and /var
separate.
On servers, it might make sense to keep /var separate depending on which
services write there.

Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On 2011-08-01 10:23 AM, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> that's my impression now too since nobody has managed to provide useful
> case for separate /usr, or they have been very vague

I will switch if I have to but saying / and /usr on the same filesystem
is the better technical solution just annoys me.

I understand if going against upstream and keeping them seperate is not
worth the hassle and noone steps up to do it.  But then we should say
so.  Please don't kid yourself (or others).
--

-- 
Eray Aslan <eras <at> gentoo.org>

Re: Warn users not to do separate /usr partition without proper initramfs in the handbook?

On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:22:02 +0200
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn <chithanh <at> gentoo.org> wrote:

> Samuli Suominen schrieb:
> > should think this inverse; make separate partitions for the data
> > directories such as /home or /var
> > have /usr on /
> > so when / goes down, you still keep your data
> 
> Putting /home and /var on separate partitions can increase isolation
> even further, that is true.
> 
> On desktop systems, directories outside /usr and /home contribute not
> much to the total disk space used. So if you have one / and one /usr
> partition, the total amount of data that would be exposed to
> corruption is not much different from having all of /, /home, /usr
> and /var separate.

On desktop systems, it is common to have random hacks around. Sometimes
large amounts of data are in /var, sometimes somewhere in /mnt,
sometimes in /home. I don't think that setup is really worth
considering deeply.

> On servers, it might make sense to keep /var separate depending on
> which services write there.

BTW is the /srv concept dead already?

--

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny