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Eugen Leitl | 3 May 2004 15:54

The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)


List's been comatose, so I'm just posting a few random snippets.

Fedora Core 2 test 3 <http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/> is a genuine
improvement in end user usability. The 2.6.x kernel produces a much superior
GUI response. Resolution resizing in X doesn't require restarting the server.
Lots of other goodies, too, but those are more under the hood.

Have been attending a road show (Sun dual Opteron servers, Java Desktop
System) today. I still don't understand what Sun's story on Linux is. They
must know it's eating them alive both at the low end and at the clustering
end.

Is Sun confused? Or are they just faking it? Anyone knows?

----- Forwarded message from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org -----

From: brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org
Date: 3 May 2004 10:26:02 -0000
To: slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org
Subject: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt
User-Agent: SlashdotNewsScooper/0.0.3

Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/02/1838225
Posted by: timothy, on 2004-05-03 07:14:00
Topic: gnu, 84 comments

   from the pent-up-demand dept.
   [1]MadFarmAnimalz writes "On the first of May, the [2]Egyptian LUG had
   the first ever Linux [3]Installfest (check out the photos and for
(Continue reading)

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Jeff Kinz | 3 May 2004 18:31

Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 03:54:17PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> 
> List's been comatose, so I'm just posting a few random snippets.
> 
> Fedora Core 2 test 3 <http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/> is a genuine
> improvement in end user usability. The 2.6.x kernel produces a much superior
> GUI response. Resolution resizing in X doesn't require restarting the server.
> Lots of other goodies, too, but those are more under the hood.
> 
> Have been attending a road show (Sun dual Opteron servers, Java Desktop
> System) today. I still don't understand what Sun's story on Linux is. They
> must know it's eating them alive both at the low end and at the clustering
> end.
> 
> Is Sun confused? Or are they just faking it? Anyone knows?
Is this a serious question or just a rhetorical one?

They are faking it, running as fast as they can just to slow down the
rate they are losing market share at. They will continue to (try to)
rely on telling a good story (marketing) which, if they can get people
to believe it, will convince some to continue to purchase SUN systems.
(Same reason businesses purchased NT for servers...)

Please note that I think SUN does make some good stuff. This is not a
rant against SUN. SUN is just at the wrong place of the market at the
wrong time. If they had followed MS lead and commoditized UNIX in the
mid to late 1980's they could now be in MS's very enviable position
and would consequently be much less vulnerable to the impending Linux
erosion. In fact, a commoditized BSD-based UNIX might have prevented the
development of Linux at all. Would enough people have worked as hard on
(Continue reading)

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Jeff Waugh | 4 May 2004 02:52
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

<quote who="Jeff Kinz">

> They are faking it, running as fast as they can just to slow down the rate
> they are losing market share at. They will continue to (try to) rely on
> telling a good story (marketing) which, if they can get people to believe
> it, will convince some to continue to purchase SUN systems.  (Same reason
> businesses purchased NT for servers...)

Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but they're
having some really great successes with Java Desktop System. If they manage
to do the right thing by themselves *and* the community, they'll do very
well out of it. They certainly have a massive head start on Novell and Red
Hat.

- Jeff

--

-- 
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                          suppose." - Mick Molloy
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Martin Pool | 4 May 2004 03:15
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

On  4 May 2004, Jeff Waugh <jdub <at> perkypants.org> wrote:
> <quote who="Jeff Kinz">
> 
> > They are faking it, running as fast as they can just to slow down the rate
> > they are losing market share at. They will continue to (try to) rely on
> > telling a good story (marketing) which, if they can get people to believe
> > it, will convince some to continue to purchase SUN systems.  (Same reason
> > businesses purchased NT for servers...)
> 
> Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but they're
> having some really great successes with Java Desktop System.

[grumpiness, feel free to delete]

Does it actually contain any Java?  Naming your product after an
largely unrelated technology doesn't seem like 'good messaging'.  And
doubly so when the namesake is a bit on the nose as a result of
excessive hype in the 90s.  

It's an OK language, but the common user experience is that Java is
slow, flaky, hard to install and just generally inferior to a native
application.  None of these are really true of GNOME anymore, but why
suggest it?

I don't know why it bugs me.  I guess I'm glad they're doing good work
on it.

--

-- 
Martin
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Jeff Waugh | 4 May 2004 03:21
Gravatar

Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

<quote who="Martin Pool">

> > Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but
> > they're having some really great successes with Java Desktop System.
> 
> [grumpiness, feel free to delete]
> 
> Does it actually contain any Java?  Naming your product after an largely
> unrelated technology doesn't seem like 'good messaging'.  And doubly so
> when the namesake is a bit on the nose as a result of excessive hype in
> the 90s.  

It has Java Help and a few other things like that (some of which noticeably
replace GNOME components), and an upcoming release will include Looking
Glass (that 3D desktop thing, which is all Java).

> It's an OK language, but the common user experience is that Java is slow,
> flaky, hard to install and just generally inferior to a native
> application.  None of these are really true of GNOME anymore, but why
> suggest it?
> 
> I don't know why it bugs me.  I guess I'm glad they're doing good work on
> it.

It bugs a lot of people. It's .NET-style branding touching "our code", and
that gets a bit frustrating. However, Sun have always mentioned GNOME on
their JDS pages (and previous products), where Red Hat and Ximian have not.

- Jeff
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Jeff Kinz | 4 May 2004 05:49

Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

On Tue, May 04, 2004 at 10:52:28AM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> <quote who="Jeff Kinz">
> > They are faking it, running as fast as they can just to slow down the rate
> > they are losing market share at. They will continue to (try to) rely on
> > telling a good story (marketing) which, if they can get people to believe
> > it, will convince some to continue to purchase SUN systems.  (Same reason
> > businesses purchased NT for servers...)
> 
> Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but they're
> having some really great successes with Java Desktop System. If they manage
> to do the right thing by themselves *and* the community, they'll do very
> well out of it. They certainly have a massive head start on Novell and Red
> Hat.

Ja, JDS (Or "Linux" as we know it :) ) is a pure Linux play from SUN and 
its the first real move that shows SUN may be on the path to
re-inventing itself, which it desperately needs to do.  SUN-Linux (or
"JDS" as SUN knows it.. ) has been out for a while and seems very
aggresively priced:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/04/22/HNsundesktop_1.html
"The Java Desktop System costs $100 per employee per year or $50 per
employee per year if the client also buys the Java Enterprise System
server software, which costs $100 per employee per year. These prices
are significantly below those charged by Microsoft for similar
products."

$100/year per desktop seems like quite a bargain (Even today) if it
includes the hardware. Even better is the $25/desktop for schools. But
Dunno if any of these prices include hardware or if its software only.
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Jeff Waugh | 4 May 2004 07:35
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

<quote who="Jeff Kinz">

> Ja, JDS (Or "Linux" as we know it :) ) is a pure Linux play from SUN and 
> its the first real move that shows SUN may be on the path to
> re-inventing itself, which it desperately needs to do.  SUN-Linux (or
> "JDS" as SUN knows it.. ) has been out for a while and seems very
> aggresively priced:

JDS and Sun Linux are actually different. JDS is a ripped-apart and rebadged
SuSE, Sun Linux was a Red Hat based 'enterprise' distro. They are shipping
RHEL and SuSE for their low-range server boxes. It's hard to tell just yet
if they'll go the IBM route or do their own thing.

- Jeff

--

-- 
GVADEC 2004: Kristiansand, Norway                    http://2004.guadec.org/

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                     al double leters." - Telsa Gwynne
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Karsten M. Self | 4 May 2004 09:50
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

on Mon, May 03, 2004 at 12:31:03PM -0400, Jeff Kinz (jkinz <at> kinz.org) wrote:
> On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 03:54:17PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> > Fedora Core 2 test 3 <http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/> is a genuine
> > improvement in end user usability. The 2.6.x kernel produces a much
> > superior GUI response. Resolution resizing in X doesn't require
> > restarting the server.  Lots of other goodies, too, but those are
> > more under the hood.
> > 
> > Have been attending a road show (Sun dual Opteron servers, Java
> > Desktop System) today. I still don't understand what Sun's story on
> > Linux is. They must know it's eating them alive both at the low end
> > and at the clustering end.
> > 
> > Is Sun confused? Or are they just faking it? Anyone knows?

> Is this a serious question or just a rhetorical one?

> Please note that I think SUN does make some good stuff. This is not a
> rant against SUN. SUN is just at the wrong place of the market at the
> wrong time. If they had followed MS lead and commoditized UNIX in the
> mid to late 1980's they could now be in MS's very enviable position
> and would consequently be much less vulnerable to the impending Linux
> erosion. In fact, a commoditized BSD-based UNIX might have prevented
> the development of Linux at all. Would enough people have worked as
> hard on Linux as they did if there had been Intel-Solaris licenses
> available for $50-$60?

Solaris, probably not.
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Gustaf Erikson | 4 May 2004 11:40
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

Jeff Waugh <jdub <at> perkypants.org> writes:

> Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but they're
> having some really great successes with Java Desktop System. If they manage
> to do the right thing by themselves *and* the community, they'll do very
> well out of it. They certainly have a massive head start on Novell and Red
> Hat.
>

So you cannot recommend the messaging service? We are looking for an
upgrade of our own hacked-up-beyond-all-recognition Cyrus setup here,
and Sun have been on us selling this solution.

Opinion is that we should be able to manage our own mailserver for ~30
people, and if the considered opinion of the elitists is that Sun
Messaging sucks, that is what we will do.

/g.

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-- 
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Jeff Waugh | 4 May 2004 11:49
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Re: The First-Ever Installfest in Egypt (fwd from brian-slashdotnews <at> hyperreal.org)

<quote who="Gustaf Erikson">

> > Their messaging on Linux - thanks to jschwartz - is abominable, but
> > they're having some really great successes with Java Desktop System. If
> > they manage to do the right thing by themselves *and* the community,
> > they'll do very well out of it. They certainly have a massive head start
> > on Novell and Red Hat.
> 
> So you cannot recommend the messaging service? We are looking for an
> upgrade of our own hacked-up-beyond-all-recognition Cyrus setup here, and
> Sun have been on us selling this solution.
> 
> Opinion is that we should be able to manage our own mailserver for ~30
> people, and if the considered opinion of the elitists is that Sun
> Messaging sucks, that is what we will do.

Erm, "messaging" as in "marketing messaging", not a product. :-)

- Jeff

--

-- 
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                              <boc> man i rule
                       <bram> boc: how do you rule?
                            <boc> with authority
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