Seth David Schoen | 2 Sep 2001 20:17

MP3 patents

What's the deal with patents on MP3 players?

http://www.mp3licensing.com/ says they need a license!  Other people
seem to disagree.

--

-- 
Seth David Schoen <schoen <at> loyalty.org> | Its really terrible when FBI arrested
Temp.  http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | hacker, who visited USA with peacefull
down:  http://www.loyalty.org/   (CAF) | mission -- to share his knowledge with
     http://www.freesklyarov.org/      | american nation.  (Ilya V. Vasilyev)

Seth David Schoen | 2 Sep 2001 20:25

Re: MP3 patents

Jack Moffitt writes:

> > What's the deal with patents on MP3 players?
> > 
> > http://www.mp3licensing.com/ says they need a license!  Other people
> > seem to disagree.
> 
> Free player don't need a license, to my knowledge, or rather, they are
> granted a free license.
> 
> Commercial decoders do need a license.
> 
> Most people don't seem to bother, and it's generally thought that their
> decoding patents are much less enforceable than their encoding ones.
> 
> That being said, this is helping Ogg out a great deal, and is the reason
> we've shipped in two commercial games already.

OK, I'm going to include an MP3 player in the LNX-BBC downloadable
packages, then, but I'm going to have a README which flames software
patents and promotes Ogg.

Speak now or forever hold your peace!

--

-- 
Seth David Schoen <schoen <at> loyalty.org> | Its really terrible when FBI arrested
Temp.  http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | hacker, who visited USA with peacefull
down:  http://www.loyalty.org/   (CAF) | mission -- to share his knowledge with
     http://www.freesklyarov.org/      | american nation.  (Ilya V. Vasilyev)

(Continue reading)

M. Drew Streib | 2 Sep 2001 20:33

Re: MP3 patents

On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 11:25:50AM -0700, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> > Free player don't need a license, to my knowledge, or rather, they are
> > granted a free license.

I'd appreciate a link to this license grant. One does not need to show
a pattern of enforcement in patents, unlike copyright or trademark
infringements, so an implied license or lack of enforcement up to this
point probably doesn't do us much good.

> > Most people don't seem to bother, and it's generally thought that their
> > decoding patents are much less enforceable than their encoding ones.

My understanding is quite different. This is particularly relevant if
you would be the named defendant in such a case.

> OK, I'm going to include an MP3 player in the LNX-BBC downloadable
> packages, then, but I'm going to have a README which flames software
> patents and promotes Ogg.
> 
> Speak now or forever hold your peace!

I wonder about the need for such a thing on an admin disk. I wouldn't go
around picking fights if you included this, but would express a strong
preference to not have it on the disk.

Damn, I'm not used to finding myself on the left side of a free software
argument on linux-elitists.

-drew

(Continue reading)

M. Drew Streib | 2 Sep 2001 21:10

Re: MP3 patents

On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:59:12PM -0600, Jack Moffitt wrote:
> However, No license fees are due if less than 5 000 copies of a
> particular game title are distributed.

With free software this is always tough, as it is pretty much impossible
to determine how many copies have been distributed (or redistributed).

> That has to be wrong though, or else the patent is unenforceable,
> because there are many people distributing mp3 players that aren't
> paying, and I havne't heard of anyone getting a letter.

Under patent law, a company is _not_ required to show a pattern of 
enforcement to make the patent enforceable. They can just decide one day
to enforce the patent, and can even sue for back damages. There is 
some consideration for 'willful' or 'non-willful' infringement, but
this doesn't remove liability.

> No one (at least not that I've heard of, and I know most of the
> developers) has ever gotten a letter for decoding royalties in a
> non-commercial application.

I know that this may be some comfort, but doesn't stop FH from one
day demanding large sums of money from people, including back-damages.
Assuming that the patent is enforceable (and at this time there is no
real reason to believe that it isn't), they would have a good case
to collect back-damages, and shut down future releases of the software.

Take for instance Unisys, who didn't enforce the GIF LZW compression
patent for a _long_ time, and then just decided to do so. One can
debate the effectiveness of the patent or of their collection campaign
(Continue reading)

M. Drew Streib | 2 Sep 2001 21:21

Re: MP3 patents

> > That has to be wrong though, or else the patent is unenforceable,
> > because there are many people distributing mp3 players that aren't
> > paying, and I havne't heard of anyone getting a letter.

<IANAL>
One other thing about patent law.

The patent holder can choose to enforce the patent selectively and 
with prejudice, so the danger is this.

For _some_ reason, a friend of FH doesn't like the linux BBC. Maybe this
is Microsoft, maybe someone else. They can ask FH to enforce the patent 
and bring a lawsuit against the BBC authors. Since the amount of money
or damages is likely pretty big, they'll end up settling in some manner
which will prevent the BBC authors from working on the project at all
in the future (unless the authors care to file for bankruptcy protection
or some similar non-happy resolution).

This can be the only suit brought against anyone. FH is not required
to treat BBC the same as anyone else. Patents are dangerously protected
by US law.

Not a likely scenario, but _possible_. :/
</IANAL>

Ever wonder why many people oppose software patents in general?

-drew

--

-- 
(Continue reading)

Seth David Schoen | 2 Sep 2001 21:26

Re: MP3 patents

Jack Moffitt writes:

> Wow.
> 
> They removed the non-commercial decoder stuff it looks like.  (The site
> has been updated since I last looked).
> 
> It looks like distributing an mp3 decoder is a $15k minimum yearly
> royalty with with $.50 a unit cost.  Ouch.

Oops.

--

-- 
Seth David Schoen <schoen <at> loyalty.org>  | Lending, printing, copying, giving
Temp.  http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/  | and text-to-speech are permissions
down:  http://www.loyalty.org/   (CAF)  | enabled by the publisher.  -- Adobe

Jack Moffitt | 2 Sep 2001 20:22
Favicon

Re: MP3 patents

> What's the deal with patents on MP3 players?
> 
> http://www.mp3licensing.com/ says they need a license!  Other people
> seem to disagree.

Free player don't need a license, to my knowledge, or rather, they are
granted a free license.

Commercial decoders do need a license.

Most people don't seem to bother, and it's generally thought that their
decoding patents are much less enforceable than their encoding ones.

That being said, this is helping Ogg out a great deal, and is the reason
we've shipped in two commercial games already.

I imagine this christmas there will be even more games shipping with
Ogg, and mainly because of this patent :)

jack.

Jack Moffitt | 2 Sep 2001 20:59
Favicon

Re: MP3 patents

> I'd appreciate a link to this license grant. One does not need to show
> a pattern of enforcement in patents, unlike copyright or trademark
> infringements, so an implied license or lack of enforcement up to this
> point probably doesn't do us much good.

All the license information is at the link provided.
www.mp3licensing.com

"Do I need a license to use mp3/mp3PRO in games?

Yes. Games using mp3/mp3PRO encoded content are licensed on a per-title
basis.

However, No license fees are due if less than 5 000 copies of a
particular game title are distributed.
"

For my game example.

Wow.

They removed the non-commercial decoder stuff it looks like.  (The site
has been updated since I last looked).

It looks like distributing an mp3 decoder is a $15k minimum yearly
royalty with with $.50 a unit cost.  Ouch.

That has to be wrong though, or else the patent is unenforceable,
because there are many people distributing mp3 players that aren't
paying, and I havne't heard of anyone getting a letter.
(Continue reading)

Jack Moffitt | 2 Sep 2001 21:25
Favicon

Re: MP3 patents

> Under patent law, a company is _not_ required to show a pattern of 
> enforcement to make the patent enforceable. They can just decide one day
> to enforce the patent, and can even sue for back damages. There is 
> some consideration for 'willful' or 'non-willful' infringement, but
> this doesn't remove liability.

Yes, I'm aware of this.  I never said that 'this pattern of not charging
is why you should feel free to ignore it'.  I said that the site used to
grant a non-commercial decoder license for $0.00 USD with no yearly
minimum. The site no longer says this.

> I know that this may be some comfort, but doesn't stop FH from one
> day demanding large sums of money from people, including back-damages.
> Assuming that the patent is enforceable (and at this time there is no
> real reason to believe that it isn't), they would have a good case
> to collect back-damages, and shut down future releases of the software.

Sigh.  I know this.  That's why I've dedicated the last years of my life
to Vorbis and such.  These are exactly the arguments I usually use.

> I'm not making the case that free software _will_ be held liable
> in the future, but rather saying that it is entirely possible, and
> the worst case scenario (which is triggered at the whim of the patent
> holder) is pretty damn bad.

It is entirely possible, but I think the non-commercial decoder license
still exists, but is not listed.  I think they just neglected to put it
there.  There certain is one listed under Broadcasting & Streaming for
non-commercial uses.

(Continue reading)

Seth David Schoen | 2 Sep 2001 22:04

Inline MIME-decoding filter

Is there a filter which takes a MIME message on stdin and writes all
attachments to stdout (or does something close to this)?  I looked at
metamail, mimedecode, and munpack without too much luck.

I want this for a silly application I've mentioned to some people.

--

-- 
Seth David Schoen <schoen <at> loyalty.org> | Its really terrible when FBI arrested
Temp.  http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/ | hacker, who visited USA with peacefull
down:  http://www.loyalty.org/   (CAF) | mission -- to share his knowledge with
     http://www.freesklyarov.org/      | american nation.  (Ilya V. Vasilyev)


Gmane