Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, 
> once voted?
> A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to
> avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be
> applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more
> substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on
> -project.

I'm not sure we want "editorial changes".

Kurt

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

Francesca Ciceri dijo [Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200]:
> Dear Debian Developers,
> 
> A recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
> the Debian Project, the community behind the *Universal* Operating
> System, doesn't have a diversity statement.
> The *technical* part of the project is already commited to diversity: we
> don't accept (in our main repository) licenses which discriminate for
> persons, groups or fields of endeavor (DFSG, points 5. and 6.).
> IMO is time for a similar statement also for the *community* part of the
> project.
> 
> Below (between "----" lines) you'll find the draft of
> the text to be voted. I'm not looking for seconds yet, but rather issues
> in the proposed text. I'll call for seconds soon.
> 
> At the end of the mail, a couple of FAQ about the diversity statement, 
> raised during the debate on -project, which hopefully will be useful 
> for peole who didn't follow the (one-month long) thread.
> 
> Thank you for your attention,
> Francesca
> 
> ----DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE----
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.

(unknown)

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

Kurt Roeckx dijo [Thu, May 03, 2012 at 11:54:32PM +0200]:
> On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, 
> > once voted?
> > A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to
> > avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be
> > applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more
> > substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on
> > -project.
> 
> I'm not sure we want "editorial changes".

Well, if you think the translations are prone to change the meaning of
the text, I think we have two options: Either to collect all possible
translations and submit them all together to a GR, or include in all
translations that the authoritative copy is the English one.

How are our foundational documents (DFSG, SC) handled in this regard?
I don't think we had to bless every translation...

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

Hi,

On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.

I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less
personal, without the use of we/you ?

Lucas

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

Hi,

On Fri, 04 May 2012, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> > interact constructively with our community.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less
> personal, without the use of we/you ?

I know that in French we tend to avoid such formulations, but in English
it's actually better that way. I believe we should keep it like it is.

(I know because I had to change the "style" when translationg the debian
admin handbook)

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/

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Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 10:14:06AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 03/05/12 at 00:32 +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> > interact constructively with our community.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of this formulation. Maybe it should be a bit less
> personal, without the use of we/you ?

I personally love this kind of phrasing.  This is supposed to be a
statement that makes people feel welcome.  Contrast "We welcome you"
with "The Debian project welcomes contributors".  The latter phrasing
(or other non-personal ways of putting it) seems, at least to me --
admittedly not a native English speaker -- quite cold.

Kind regards: David Weinehall
--

-- 
 /) David Weinehall <tao <at> debian.org> /) Rime on my window           (\
//  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/    (/   Beautiful hoar-frost       (/

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> ----DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE----
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
> value and encourage contributions from those with expertise
> in other areas, and welcome them into our community.
> 
> ----DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE----

Seconded.  I know you haven't called for seconds yet, but I don't see any
reason to wait when this has already reached broad consensus on
debian-project.

--

-- 
Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer                                    http://www.debian.org/
slangasek <at> ubuntu.com                                     vorlon <at> debian.org

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

Hi Steffen, 

On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 10:18:28AM +0200, "Steffen Möller" wrote:

 
> I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in
> the text. <pun>Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly
> welcome?</pun> 

LOL

> Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest
> substituting the first occurrence with just "us". And, since we also
> want new contributors to also interact constructively between
> themselves, and since to me it is somewhat redundant in the first
> place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with our community".

I'm not sure about removing the "with our community", but as this is a
style problem (and not a content one) I'd postpone the discussion on it
(asking for proofread on -l10n-english) after the vote.

Cheers,
Francesca

--

-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta."		P.Gori

Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

* Gunnar Wolf <gwolf <at> gwolf.org>, 2012-05-03, 18:09:
>>>Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, 
>>>once voted?
>>>A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to 
>>>avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can 
>>>be applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more 
>>>substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed 
>>>on -project.
>>I'm not sure we want "editorial changes".
>Well, if you think the translations are prone to change the meaning of 
>the text, I think we have two options: Either to collect all possible 
>translations and submit them all together to a GR,

This would be a great way to reject the proposal: hopefully nobody sane 
would vote for a position statement that he cannot understand. 
Therefore, I second this idea! ;>

>or include in all translations that the authoritative copy is the 
>English one.
>
>How are our foundational documents (DFSG, SC) handled in this regard?
>I don't think we had to bless every translation...

I hope nobody thinks that translations (especially the Polish ones!) of 
the foundations documents are in any way binding.

Anyhow, I didn't realize that Francesca was talking about translations. 
Well, did she?

--

-- 
Jakub Wilk