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Brian May | 1 Jun 2007 03:43

Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

>>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther <at> debian.org> writes:

    >> > Do we really want to go into creating castes of DDs ?
    >> 
    >> No, but it's already happened.  Let's move on.

    Sven> I prefer fixing it, now is the right moment to solve it once
    Sven> and for all in the right way.

Just an observation:

This whole problem seems to be because everyone, from both "sides", is
thinking about the situation in terms of what *they* want or don't
want:

* I want these flame wars to go away
* I want the mailing lists to become technical content again
* I want Sven to go away and not come back
* I want Sven to stop posting so much
* I want Sven to stop posting inflammatory posts
* I want to be sure these problems don't reoccur
* I want Debian to treat me fairly
* I want Debian to treat developers fairly
* I want Debian to have fare processes to deal with this in the future
* I want ...
* etc

Some of these may or may not conflict. No particular order. I probably
missed some.
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Sven Luther | 1 Jun 2007 04:16
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 11:43:29AM +1000, Brian May wrote:
> >>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther <at> debian.org> writes:
> 
>     >> > Do we really want to go into creating castes of DDs ?
>     >> 
>     >> No, but it's already happened.  Let's move on.
> 
>     Sven> I prefer fixing it, now is the right moment to solve it once
>     Sven> and for all in the right way.
> 
> Just an observation:
> 
> This whole problem seems to be because everyone, from both "sides", is
> thinking about the situation in terms of what *they* want or don't
> want:
> 
> * I want these flame wars to go away
> * I want the mailing lists to become technical content again
> * I want Sven to go away and not come back
> * I want Sven to stop posting so much
> * I want Sven to stop posting inflammatory posts
> * I want to be sure these problems don't reoccur
> * I want Debian to treat me fairly
> * I want Debian to treat developers fairly
> * I want Debian to have fare processes to deal with this in the future
> * I want ...
> * etc
> 
> Some of these may or may not conflict. No particular order. I probably
> missed some.
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Brian May | 1 Jun 2007 08:06

Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

>>>>> "Sven" == Sven Luther <luther <at> debian.org> writes:

    Sven> Notice that in the above, i said : "i prefer fixing it", and
    Sven> notice the semantic difference between that and "i
    Sven> want".

True - I might have oversimplified...

    Sven> But then maybe we don't speak the same language. I
    Sven> guess none of this matters though, since debian has decided
    Sven> to expulse me anyway, just like they did for Jonathan/Ted
    Sven> Walter, without ever thinking of setting up a procedure to
    Sven> handle expulsion fairly.

:-(
--

-- 
Brian May <bam <at> snoopy.debian.net>
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Ian Jackson | 1 Jun 2007 11:39
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

MJ Ray writes ("Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> There is a lamentable personal dispute between Sven Luther and some
> other developers.  There have been some attempts at reconciliation and
> various offers, but none have succeeded in ending this dispute.
...
> 1. Sven Luther is suspended [...]

This is absurd.  We need a general way of dealing with these kind of
problems which does not include GRs !

Ian.
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Hamish Moffatt | 1 Jun 2007 11:58
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Wed, May 30, 2007 at 01:28:13PM +0200, Frank Küster wrote:
> MJ Ray <mjr <at> phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> 
> > 1. Sven Luther is suspended from all debian lists for a year, which
> > should be similar to (b), because the project generally liked his
> > two-month self-suspension and wishes not to receive his discussion
> > contributions at the moment.
> [...]
> > 3. Sven Luther is reinstated as a full developer, reversing (a),
> > because the project wishes to receive his technical contributions.
> 
> It seems with 1 in operation, he cannot act his developer Powers
> according to constitution 3.1, numbers 2 "propose or second draft
> General Resolutions" and 3 "propose themselves as a Project Leader
> candidate in elections".

FWIW a suspended developer doesn't have such powers anyway.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish <at> debian.org> <hamish <at> cloud.net.au>

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Sven Luther | 1 Jun 2007 12:24
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> MJ Ray writes ("Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> > There is a lamentable personal dispute between Sven Luther and some
> > other developers.  There have been some attempts at reconciliation and
> > various offers, but none have succeeded in ending this dispute.
> ...
> > 1. Sven Luther is suspended [...]
> 
> This is absurd.  We need a general way of dealing with these kind of
> problems which does not include GRs !

We needed it a year ago already, and back then the only way was the DPL,
who failed, and oriented me at a GR.

I applaud your proposal, even if it is too late to do me any good, but
please have a look at the propsoals i have made in response to
anthony's. I think it is important to set up these things in order to
not even allow for the impression of foul play in the future.

Look at real-life court, they have had centuries to fine-tune these
procedures, and have a mechanism of dealing with the few loop-holes
left.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
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Ian Jackson | 1 Jun 2007 13:08
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

Sven Luther writes ("Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > [stuff]
> 
> I applaud your proposal, [...]

OMG WTF.  I'm very sorry everyone.  Obviously it must have been a
terrible idea.  I take it back.

Ian.
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Sven Luther | 1 Jun 2007 13:47
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 12:08:04PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Sven Luther writes ("Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> > On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > [stuff]
> > 
> > I applaud your proposal, [...]
> 
> OMG WTF.  I'm very sorry everyone.  Obviously it must have been a
> terrible idea.  I take it back.

Ok, Ian, Since i have already been expulsed, don't you think that this
you said above was gloating and unjust provocation ? 

I don't expect you are sensible enough to present apologizes, but it is
fun how the DPL accused me of lacking empathy, and then how you could
say stuff like the above without feeling shame.

For everyone, 

I was expulsed because i was the target of a FUD campaign, and most
everything people reproach to me, is also something that people like Ian
above are to a degree also coupable of.

People was afraid of a fair trial, where i could have presented my
evidence, and been able to provide argumentation, instead people send
menaces and provocation of the above kind my way, and then they wonder
why i felt agressed.

Disgusted,
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Pierre Habouzit | 1 Jun 2007 13:50
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 12:08:04PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Sven Luther writes ("Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute"):
> > On Fri, Jun 01, 2007 at 10:39:46AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > [stuff]
> > 
> > I applaud your proposal, [...]
> 
> OMG WTF.  I'm very sorry everyone.  Obviously it must have been a
> terrible idea.  I take it back.

  that's a terribly unclever and unsuitable answer. This kind of
behaviour is the very exact kind of things that make Sven fly of the
handle and you know it. Not to mention that it's particularly weak-kneed
to hit someone that is already knocked-down.

  I mean, what do you expect ? You want Sven to now flood -vote so that
he's "finally" kicked out from -vote as well ? Well, very clever from
you. Very scurvy as well.

  Sven has been disgraced from the project. The worse possible way.
There is absolutely *no* reason to be happy. That's very sad,
independently from the fact that he deserved it or not. *NOW* *WE* the
Debian project *MUST* STFU and let this sad story die. Time to let go.

  I understand you're upset by all the fuss, that you're frustrated with
the amount of crappy mail it generated. Everybody is. But that does not
gives you any right to be an asshole.

--

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
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Wouter Verhelst | 1 Jun 2007 14:29
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Re: Proposal: GR to deal with effects of a personal dispute

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 08:47:26PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 07:10:14PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 11:41:28AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 09:47:11AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> > > > No, you are just a DD whose access to lists has been suspended.
> > > 
> > > A sub-DD all the same, what about all those others who participated in
> > > those flamewars ?
> > 
> > Sven, with all due respect, please do not try to be party and judge at
> > the same time. Not only does that not work, it also makes you look
> > rather bad.
> 
> Wouter, i am just pointing out that there are more than one to
> participate in a flamewar,

We all know that, so that doesn't exactly help anyone.

> and pinpointing me is more of the same injustice which is at the heart
> of this mess.

Maybe so; but OTOH, if you keep pointing fingers to other people, then
that doesn't exactly help resolve the situation; on the contrary.

I'm not saying you're wrong if you claim other people did something
wrong; I'm only saying you're not helping anyone or anything by doing
so.

> Notice that if the situation where inversed, and i was on the winning
> side, i would have said exactly the same. That said, if the situation
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Gmane