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Matthew Garrett | 2 Mar 2005 13:52
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The role of the DPL in technical decisions

Sven Luther <sven.luther <at> wanadoo.fr> wrote:

(following up here for now - I think it's a question that could do with
more discussion than IRC really allows for)

> I would like to know from the DPL candidates what is their opinion on way the
> ftp-masters handle the NEW queue, and in particular how they handle the
> packages that are not really NEW : renamed binary/source packages, package
> split, new kernel version and new library version which need a new package
> upload. 

Speaking personally, it would certainly be nice if packages went through
NEW quicker. However, I don't think that's entirely relevant:

> Do you think there is currently a problem about this, and if so what do you
> intent to change in this regard.

Do I think there's a problem? Only in that people are unsure what causes
delays in NEW processing, and as a result are unable to form a good
opinion about whether those delays are acceptable or not. 

Fundamentally, it isn't the DPLs job to make judgements about the
technical decisions a team makes. If the ftp-masters believe that the
current handling of the NEW queue is the best way of doing so, then
that's their decision to make. The developers have the right to
criticise that, and it would be nice if we could have a reasonable
discussion about whether it could be improved. In the end, if the
developers and the ftp-masters continue to disagree, we have the
technical committee to decide who's right.
(Continue reading)

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Steve Greenland | 2 Mar 2005 14:21

Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

On 02-Mar-05, 06:52 (CST), Matthew Garrett <mgarrett <at> chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote: 
> Fundamentally, it isn't the DPLs job to make judgements about the
> technical decisions a team makes. If the ftp-masters believe that the
> current handling of the NEW queue is the best way of doing so, then
> that's their decision to make.

I think mosts people's current questioning of this is not about
particular decisions that the ftp-masters are making (which is
technical), but about the inability to find out what decisions are being
made, if any, and what order those decisions are being made in. These
are procedural issues, and entirely within the purview of the DPL to
question.

Steve

--

-- 
Steve Greenland
    The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
    system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
    world.       -- seen on the net
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David Schmitt | 2 Mar 2005 14:44
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Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

On Wednesday 02 March 2005 13:52, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Put simply, the constitution says that the DPL can't make technical
> decisions that overrule other people. I agree with the constitution.
> However, I will work to ensure that it's possible for people to find out
> /why/ NEW is processed the way it is. Teams have the authority to make
> technical decisions - they should be willing to justify them to the rest
> of the project.

The difference between debian-kernel, debian-release and debian-x vs. 
debian-ftpmaster and debian-buildd is not technical.

Regards, David
--

-- 
- hallo... wie gehts heute?
- *hust* gut *rotz* *keuch*
- gott sei dank kommunizieren wir über ein septisches medium ;)
 -- Matthias Leeb, Uni f. angewandte Kunst, 2005-02-15
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Matthew Garrett | 2 Mar 2005 14:48
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Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

Steve Greenland <steveg <at> moregruel.net> wrote:

> I think mosts people's current questioning of this is not about
> particular decisions that the ftp-masters are making (which is
> technical), but about the inability to find out what decisions are being
> made, if any, and what order those decisions are being made in. These
> are procedural issues, and entirely within the purview of the DPL to
> question.

Absolutely. If teams make technical decisions that affect other
developers, they should be willing to discuss why those decisions have
been made. If they fail to do so, then it should be the DPL's
responsibility to ensure that that information is passed on. 

Debian is run by its developers - the DPL exists in order to ensure that
the developers are able to make appropriate decisions, not to make those
decisions himself.
--

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59-chiark.mail.debian.vote <at> srcf.ucam.org
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Matthew Garrett | 2 Mar 2005 14:53
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Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

David Schmitt <david <at> schmitt.edv-bus.at> wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 March 2005 13:52, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>> Put simply, the constitution says that the DPL can't make technical
>> decisions that overrule other people. I agree with the constitution.
>> However, I will work to ensure that it's possible for people to find out
>> /why/ NEW is processed the way it is. Teams have the authority to make
>> technical decisions - they should be willing to justify them to the rest
>> of the project.
> 
> The difference between debian-kernel, debian-release and debian-x vs. 
> debian-ftpmaster and debian-buildd is not technical.

No, but that wasn't the question being asked. It's unreasonable for the
DPL to ask the ftp-masters to change the way they process NEW, which is
what Sven appeared to be asking for. It's reasonable for the DPL to ask
the ftp-masters to justify the way they process NEW, which would allow
the developers to discuss the technical issues involved and try to find
a better way of approaching the problem. 

--

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59-chiark.mail.debian.vote <at> srcf.ucam.org
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Steve McIntyre | 2 Mar 2005 15:22
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Re: DPL election IRC Debate - Call for questions

Helen wrote:
>
>You are welcome to either post suggested questions to this list, or to
>email myself and/or Martin privately with your suggestions.  If you wish
>your questions to be anonymous, please email us privately and make that
>clear.

A commonly-acknowledged problem within Debian is communication:

 * A lack of effective communications in some areas
 * Rude, aggressive communication dissuading contributions

Is there anything that can be done on these fronts? How would our DPL
candidates improve things in these areas?

--

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve <at> einval.com
"It's actually quite entertaining to watch ag129 prop his foot up on
 the desk so he can get a better aim."          [ seen in ucam.chat ]
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Sven Luther | 2 Mar 2005 18:51
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Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 12:52:47PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> Sven Luther <sven.luther <at> wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
> (following up here for now - I think it's a question that could do with
> more discussion than IRC really allows for)
> 
> > I would like to know from the DPL candidates what is their opinion on way the
> > ftp-masters handle the NEW queue, and in particular how they handle the
> > packages that are not really NEW : renamed binary/source packages, package
> > split, new kernel version and new library version which need a new package
> > upload. 
> 
> Speaking personally, it would certainly be nice if packages went through
> NEW quicker. However, I don't think that's entirely relevant:
> 
> > Do you think there is currently a problem about this, and if so what do you
> > intent to change in this regard.
> 
> Do I think there's a problem? Only in that people are unsure what causes
> delays in NEW processing, and as a result are unable to form a good
> opinion about whether those delays are acceptable or not. 
> 
> Fundamentally, it isn't the DPLs job to make judgements about the
> technical decisions a team makes. If the ftp-masters believe that the
> current handling of the NEW queue is the best way of doing so, then
> that's their decision to make. The developers have the right to
> criticise that, and it would be nice if we could have a reasonable
> discussion about whether it could be improved. In the end, if the
> developers and the ftp-masters continue to disagree, we have the
> technical committee to decide who's right.
(Continue reading)

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Matthew Garrett | 2 Mar 2005 19:18
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Re: The role of the DPL in technical decisions

Sven Luther <sven.luther <at> wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> As i understand the NEW handling is needed for :
> 
>   a) make sure the licence is ok, and the package is otherwise distribuable,
>   and maybe setup the US-big-brother survey of developer's work.
> 
>   b) check if the new package upload doesn't split in too many subpackages or
>   whatever and doesn't explode the archive:

c) ensure that the packages are in the appropriate section.

But making decisions about this really isn't the DPL's job. If you
disagree with how the ftp-masters handle it, then it ought to be
discussed with them. If they're unwilling to have that discussion, then
the DPL's involvement may be justifiable.
--

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59-chiark.mail.debian.vote <at> srcf.ucam.org
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Jeroen van Wolffelaar | 2 Mar 2005 20:08
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Call for brevity and on-topicness of discussion

Hi people,

With the record number of six people running for DPL this year[1], and
having now five platforms available (at the same location), this year's
DPL campaiging promises to become an interesting discussion.

In order to try to keep the size of the discussion still consumeable by
as much people as possible, I would like to call for all participants to
pay attention to common mailing list etiquette:

- Please try to be brief and to the point
- Do not make off-topic remarks or just reply because you've come up with
  something witty; debian-curiosa[2] is if nothing else best suited for
  that.
- Try to keep up with -vote so that you don't ask duplicate
  questions/give duplicate answers
- Trim down the text you're replying to, such that only exactly the
  needed context is there. Do not quote signatures.
- Change the subject when turning the (sub-)thread into a different
  direction
- Do not top-post
- Be polite. Do not attack with argumentum ad hominem. Of course, personal
  properties of the candidates are on-topic for a DPL election, but
  please only discuss those that are relevant for a prospective DPL

I hope that if everybody pays a little bit attention to these
guidelines, the campaigning discussion will be constructive, nice and
interesting, and especially makes sure that the debian developers can
gather the information here that they would like to have to make a
well-thought choice for the DPL elections.
(Continue reading)

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Daniel Ruoso | 2 Mar 2005 21:31
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Re: DPL election IRC Debate - Call for questions

Em Seg, 2005-02-28 às 06:29, Helen Faulkner escreveu:
> We would therefore like to call for suggestions for questions to be put
> to the candidates during the debate.  We hope to be able to choose a set
> of questions which reflect the concerns and interests of Debian
> Developers in general.

Ok, here's a suggestion...

* I had recently post a message to debian-project[1] suggesting that we
could plan structural changes in Debian, I mean, We all know that
"Debian releases when it's ready", but few people know what the "it"
means. For example, if the init maintainers decide to define the locale
environment variables at the boot process, many packages would break
and then Debian would be far from being ready. I'm not criticizing this
structural changes, but I do think that the DPL could coordinate this
sctructural changes in a way more people know what it means by "when
it's ready". I would like the candidates to comment on this topic.

daniel

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