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Ron | 1 Jul 2004 04:11
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003


You know, my first impression, when I saw this posted to -announce,
was something along the lines of how embarrassed I would be if my
faith in progressive procrastination were put so publicly on display...

My second however, was to wonder what this does to the validity of
the gr vote.

Considering the circumstances that brought this gr to the table, and the
many options I've been presented with in it for quietly weaseling out of
the consequences of the previous hasty attempt at changing things, I do
have to wonder more than I normally might about the irregularity of
posting a 'how to vote' card to -announce right as the polls are
closing...

Frankly, I'm not really sure what basis to legitimacy either of these
gr's can really have.  The Social Contract is something each of us
entered into or affirmed individually on our own shared understanding
of it with whoever vouched us into the keyring.  But I also understand
that it is a contract between _me_ and the users of Debian.  Anyone
who fobs off that responsibility by suggesting it is a contract between
Debian as a committee and some mythical user demographic of their own
choosing, and moreso that it is a contract which can be changed on any
whim by simple super majority vote from only one of the contracted
parties, needs an even bigger dose of growing up than overfiend just got.

The people that bind this project together can do so because they have
their own personal commitment to keeping software they care about free.
Documents such as the DSC can vaguely express what we all think after a
lot of word trading on the late night lists, but they can never usefully
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Ben Burton | 1 Jul 2004 06:02
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003


> Considering the circumstances that brought this gr to the table, and the
> many options I've been presented with in it for quietly weaseling out of
> the consequences of the previous hasty attempt at changing things, I do
> have to wonder more than I normally might about the irregularity of
> posting a 'how to vote' card to -announce right as the polls are
> closing...

Hmm, I read it as a simple whoops with the mailer, not a deliberate post
to -announce.

What is it again?  "Never attribute to malice what can be easily explained
by stupidity."  (Sorry Andreas, no offense intended -- I too have had
problems with my reply button in the past. :) )

b.
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Manoj Srivastava | 1 Jul 2004 07:39
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:41:33 +0930, Ron  <ron <at> debian.org> said: 

> You know, my first impression, when I saw this posted to -announce,
> was something along the lines of how embarrassed I would be if my
> faith in progressive procrastination were put so publicly on
> display...

	What does the term "progressive procrastination" mean?

> My second however, was to wonder what this does to the validity of
> the gr vote.

	Why would it do anything to the validity of the vote?

> Considering the circumstances that brought this gr to the table, and
> the many options I've been presented with in it for quietly
> weaseling out of the consequences of the previous hasty attempt at
> changing things, I do have to wonder more than I normally might
> about the irregularity of posting a 'how to vote' card to -announce
> right as the polls are closing...

	A) this was not a how to vote card, b) why would posting a
 how to vote card be irregular?

	manoj
--

-- 
Hatred, n.: A sentiment appropriate to the occasion of another's
superiority. Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Manoj Srivastava   <srivasta <at> debian.org>  <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
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Matthias Urlichs | 1 Jul 2004 11:52
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003

Hi, Ron wrote:

> Frankly, I'm not really sure what basis to legitimacy either of these
> gr's can really have.  The Social Contract is something each of us
> entered into or affirmed individually on our own shared understanding
> of it with whoever vouched us into the keyring.  But I also understand
> that it is a contract between _me_ and the users of Debian.

(A) That's why there's a 3:1 supermajority requirement.
(B) If you don't like the change, you're free to terminate your
    involvement with Debian.
(C) You couldn't be bothered to bring this up _before_ the vote actually
    started, could you?

-- 
Matthias Urlichs

--

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Manoj Srivastava | 1 Jul 2004 23:44
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Away for fourth of July

Hi folks,

	I am going away for the July 4th holiday, and shall not be
 back until the evening of the 5th.  And then I pronptly fly back out
 again for a two week trip to a dungeon in the nations capital; ad I
 may or may not have time to update the web pages for the vote.

	Devotee shall publish the results of the vote promptly at
 http://master.debian.org/~srivasta/gr_sarge_results.txt after the
 vote is done, in my absence, but official word may be some time in
 coming.

	manoj
--

-- 
[A computer is] like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy. Joseph Campbell
Manoj Srivastava   <srivasta <at> debian.org>  <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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Debian Project Secretary | 1 Jul 2004 23:39
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Third and Final Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003


======================================================================
     Voting starts on          Friday, June 18th, 23:59:59 UTC,  2004
     Votes must be received by Friday, July  2nd, 23:59:59 UTC,  2004
======================================================================

The following ballot is for voting on a General Resolution to address
the effect of the previous general resolution, titled "Editorial
changes to the Social Contract", on the release schedule of Sarge.
The vote is being conducted in accordance with the policy delineated
in Section A, Standard Resolution Procedure, of the Debian
Constitution.

======================================================================
The details of the general resolution can be found at:
http://www.debian.org/vote/2004/vote_004
======================================================================

HOW TO VOTE

Do not erase anything between the lines below and do not change the
choice names.

In the brackets next to your most preferred choice, place a 1. Place a
2 in the brackets next to your next most preferred choice. Do not
enter a number smaller than 1 or larger than 7. You may rank options
equally (as long as all choices X you make fall in the range 1<= X <= 7).

Normally, "Further Discussion" should rank as the final
option. However, in certain circumstances it may be required to
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Andreas Tille | 2 Jul 2004 08:04
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003


On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Debian Project Secretary wrote:

> -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> [   ] Choice 1: Postpone changes until September 2004  [needs 3:1]
> [   ] Choice 2: Postpone changes until Sarge releases  [needs 3:1]
> [   ] Choice 3: Add apology to Social Contract         [needs 3:1]
> [   ] Choice 4: Revert to old wording of SC            [needs 3:1]
> [   ] Choice 5: "Transition Guide" foundation document [needs 3:1]
> [   ] Choice 6: Reaffirm the current SC                [needs 1:1]
> [   ] Choice 7: Further discussion
> -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The responses to a valid vote shall be signed by the vote key created
> for this vote. The public key for the vote, signed by the Project
> secretary, is appended below.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Remark: The ballot is left blank intentionally because I want to express
that I feel incompetent to decide between the options given.
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Graham Wilson | 2 Jul 2004 17:47

Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003

On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 08:04:41AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Debian Project Secretary wrote:
> > -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > [   ] Choice 1: Postpone changes until September 2004  [needs 3:1]
> > [   ] Choice 2: Postpone changes until Sarge releases  [needs 3:1]
> > [   ] Choice 3: Add apology to Social Contract         [needs 3:1]
> > [   ] Choice 4: Revert to old wording of SC            [needs 3:1]
> > [   ] Choice 5: "Transition Guide" foundation document [needs 3:1]
> > [   ] Choice 6: Reaffirm the current SC                [needs 1:1]
> > [   ] Choice 7: Further discussion
> > -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The responses to a valid vote shall be signed by the vote key created
> > for this vote. The public key for the vote, signed by the Project
> > secretary, is appended below.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Remark: The ballot is left blank intentionally because I want to express
> that I feel incompetent to decide between the options given.

If you don't feel like you can vote for any of the given choices, why
did you not participate in the discussions prior to the vote? Why did
you not propose something that you were comfortable voting on?

--

-- 
gram
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Jochen Voss | 3 Jul 2004 17:41
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vote graph for GR2004-004

Hello,

I converted the tally sheet from the latest GR into a graph, showing
which option defeats which.  Obviously everything is very inofficial,
especially in the light of

    http://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2004/06/msg00183.html

If you are interested, you can find the result on my home page
at

    http://seehuhn.de/comp/GR2004-004.html

I hope this helps,
Jochen
--

-- 
http://seehuhn.de/
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Sam Hartman | 3 Jul 2004 21:26
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Re: Second Call for votes: General resolution: Sarge Release Schedule in view of GR 2004-003

>>>>> "Graham" == Graham Wilson <bob <at> decoy.wox.org> writes:

    Graham> If you don't feel like you can vote for any of the given
    Graham> choices, why did you not participate in the discussions
    Graham> prior to the vote? Why did you not propose something that
    Graham> you were comfortable voting on?

Honestly these discussions seem like they take up a lot of time.  I'd
rather spend the little time I have for Debian working on packages.  

What I did is read enough of the discussion after the fact to
understand the proposals and make a decision.  IT happens I found
several options acceptable.  However if I had not found options
acceptable I would have voted for more discussion.  If enough people
had voted as I did that more discussion won, then I would feel
obligated to participate in the second round of discussion.

In effect, I'm saying that I trusted the people who had time to
discuss this issue enough to come up with options I found acceptable.
It seems at least from my standpoint that my trust waas well placed.

--Sam
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Gmane