Greaat disappointment

Re: Greaat disappointment

FTR: http://paste.debian.net/133330/

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GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D

Re: Greaat disappointment

On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 01:55:01AM +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7
> pre-installed.
> I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks (partitioning etc).
> Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation
> I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to create
> and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive understanding
> on the subject.
> I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried #Debian
> at chat.freenode.com
<snip>
> Thanks for reading my random ramble mortal.
> You may return to your duties.
> We may hear of each other again. I may consider creating my own foundation for
> an all new OS.
> 
> Friendly greetings,
> TAKA
Hi TAKA,
you will find a much better response if you ask your question on the
debian-user mailing list. That list is more representative of the good people
who use debian than the IRC channel. IRC is another kind of beast. It is more
hit or miss. Debian does not pay people to moderate IRC or the mailing lists,
we are a group of volunteers. There are developers, administrators, users and
such. There are about 1,000 main debian software maintainers. But maintaining
software is different than answering questions on IRC or mailing lists. The
people on IRC and Mailing lists can be anyone. Please try the mailing lists on
lists.debian.org, you will find nice folks there. You might also have local
debian user group for even better help. my local group goes out for beers and
helps new users personally.

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Re: Greaat disappointment

On 30/09/11 08:55 PM, Qactuar Rogue wrote:
> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.

As I saw it, you lead by implying the channel is at least partly
populated by dumbasses. That did not get you off to a good start.

As for what transpired in PM, that's strictly between you and the person
whom you PMed.

Sorry the experience was not a good one for you. I hope it doesn't put
you off irc entirely, as I think if you work with and watch these people
for a while, they're generally a nice bunch.

Ben

Re: Greaat disappointment

On Sat, 2011-10-01 at 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7
> pre-installed.
> I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks
> (partitioning etc).
> Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation
> I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to
> create
> and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive
> understanding on the subject.
> I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried
> #Debian at chat.freenode.com
> 
> I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the
> `helpfulness` of the people on the channel.
> On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I
> was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone
> who  replied to my posting on the channel.

That seems quite reasonable.  You have no right to expect free
one-to-one support.

> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
[...]

And then, apparently, you started insulting people.

> I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating
> millions of dollars.
[...]

If you really have so much money to spare, consider paid support from a
consultant as listed under <http://www.debian.org/consultants/>.

Ben.

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                                                           - Albert Einstein

Re: Greaat disappointment

Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : 
> I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software
> developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank
> you very much.

I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people
who spend their days trolling on #debian.

Cheers,
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Re: Greaat disappointment

Hello,

On 10/01/2011 06:13 AM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-10-01 at 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I was planning on installing Debian on a new laptop that had Windows 7
>> pre-installed.
>> I was researching the methods of installation for two weeks
>> (partitioning etc).
>> Then right before beginning the disk wipe and later the installation
>> I had problems deciding on my own for what kind of partition table to
>> create
>> and wanted to have feedback from somebody who has a comprehensive
>> understanding on the subject.
>> I went on IRC. Firstly I tried #Debian on irc.debian.org then I tried
>> #Debian at chat.freenode.com
>>
>> I would like to express my greatest disappointment regarding the
>> `helpfulness` of the people on the channel.
>> On irc.debian.org everyone was a complete dumbass. On both channels I
>> was told off for asking my questions by PMing someone
>> who  replied to my posting on the channel.
> 
> That seems quite reasonable.  You have no right to expect free
> one-to-one support.

I have never been to an IRC activity  <at> debian.org. With all those
larger companies now having an online chat window opening when one
idles for more than a second on their page, I can well imagine
expectations to somehow change.

>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
> [...]
> 
> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.

I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some
IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is
happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel
might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine does not
boot" kind of question. Let us assume too little time to have passed
between that experience and the mail to this list.

irc.debian.org was an inappropriate address for that kind of help
seeked. A local Linux group for volunteers' help may work out better.
However, at least over here, the Linux user groups are somewhat on
the decline, much like nobody ever hears about Windows user groups.
Linux is just everywhere. When we send people off to look for help
locally, this effectively really means to either have a (friend's)*
friend who has done it before or to just ask any IT professional.

For improving synchronous help, I have no immediate idea. Anything
that comes to mind would cost money. And the Debian main pages would
need to point to that. This is then more Ubuntu than Debian, I think.

>> I also considered investing into the Debian project by donating
>> millions of dollars.
> [...]
> 
> If you really have so much money to spare, consider paid support from a
> consultant as listed under <http://www.debian.org/consultants/>.

A million donated to Debian would have zero effect on irc.debian.org,
I presume. What would we do with a million for Debian? My personal
hunch is that Debian would best be served by having the donor starting a
viable business that uses our distro and where there is a gap in
functionality have that closed by a new Open Source development / patches
to existing software. :o) This sounds like an interesting separate
thread.

All the best,

Steffen

Re: Greaat disappointment

On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller <steffen_moeller <at> gmx.de> wrote:
>>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
>>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
>> [...]
>> 
>> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.
>
> I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some
> IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is
> happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a channel
> might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine does not

[00:56] <Ti-chan> Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive
understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me out?

is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15
minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments over
that.

/Sune

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Re: Greaat disappointment

On 11-10-01 at 09:14am, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> On 2011-10-01, Steffen Möller <steffen_moeller <at> gmx.de> wrote:
> >>> My nick was Ti-chan. You can research if you please.
> >>> I did nothing, just kindly asked for help regarding partitioning.
> >> [...]
> >> 
> >> And then, apparently, you started insulting people.
> >
> > I can well imagine how one has made the investment to install some 
> > IRC client to get access to that presumed source of help. One is 
> > happy to get it started and to understand what this join to a 
> > channel might mean - and then nobody wants to react to a "my machine 
> > does not
> 
> [00:56] <Ti-chan> Hi. Could someone who has a remotely comprehensive 
> understanding of partitioning and is not a complete dumbass help me 
> out?
> 
> is apparantly the guys first words to the debian channel, around 15 
> minutes after he joined. There is nothing kind nor any investments 
> over that.

Installing(!) an IRC client and diving into the world of IRC is an 
investment.  Possibly so long ago that you made that investment that you 
have forgotten, but the investment is real.

I still remember how clumsy I felt with IRC back in 2004 when I started 
using IRC (in order to reach the the people in same room as me when I 
joined my first debconf - debconf4 in Brazil).  It was quite an 
investment for me back then to install an IRC client (thanks for the 
help, Micah!), and I am sure I broke some rules of conduct when I 
started chatting.

I agree that it makes good sense why no good comes out of above message, 
but I disagree that there could be no investment involved.

 - Jonas

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Re: Greaat disappointment

On Sat, Oct 01, 2011 at 09:48 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le samedi 01 octobre 2011 à 01:55 +0200, Qactuar Rogue a écrit : 
> > I do not want Debian anymore however. I do not wish to use software
> > developed by those people who are surfing on your IRC channels, thank
> > you very much.
> 
> I’m afraid I have to inform you that Debian is not developed by people
> who spend their days trolling on #debian.

It is certainly not developed by people *trolling* on #debian, but there are
DDs, DMs and otherwise active contributors among the regulars.

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