Steve Langasek | 1 Feb 02:00 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 04:46:56PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> On Thu January 31 2008 9:35:08 am Richard Hecker wrote:

> > This looks like confirmation that vorlon was right to
> > mistrust HennaX as a female.

> But surely that is not a requirement to be in that channel, right?

Indeed not.  But the charter of that channel is to be an entry point for
women to get involved in Debian development, and the ops are cognizant of
the impact that gender ratio has on its usefulness in furthering this goal.
We routinely ask men who aren't part of the Debian development community to
leave the channel, though it's not at all rare that the "asking" takes the
form of a kickban before it's heard.

> I am not saying I mistrust vorlon or anyone else.  Frankly that was a huge 
> log, I skimmed it, and didn't find the interesting bits.  And I suspect 
> vorlon based the kickban on other criteria.

I admit that the timing of the kickban was somewhat kneejerk on my part; it
was already reasonably clear that HennaX was not part of #debian-women's
target audience before that point, but the kickban happened when I had
positively identified him.

On the other hand, for several days he'd also been participating civilly on
#debian-devel where I'm also an op, and I saw no need to kick him from
channels he wasn't misusing.  So this isn't a case of trying to abuse my
op powers as part of some sort of vendetta, just enforcement of a standing
policy.

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Patrick Frank | 1 Feb 10:33 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

Steve Langasek wrote:

> > On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 04:46:56PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
> > > On Thu January 31 2008 9:35:08 am Richard Hecker wrote:

> [#debian-women on irc.oftc.net] is to be an entry point for women
to get involved in Debian development,

Before somebody even dares to battle male people who join that channel
I want to make one thing clear.
Women have a hard stand on the Internet, because some men are looking
for a girlfriend there and they dont respect a clear "no" from a woman
when she is not even interested in a polite and clean conversation.
I support women rights because I am an advocate of humanity.

But when you do a /whois on a person on IRC and join a channel that
is listed there because the channel sounds interesting to you, it might
happen that you are called a stalker in public and massive attacks
break lose. I hope everybody is able to see that the problem is not on
side of the person who does a /whois. Of course all who flame are just
aiming to protect that poor woman from a stalker. That situation is
growing out to the fact that useful IRC features are completely
disabled. 

Does that sound familiar to you from the daily politics news in your
country? Exactly. Problem solution totally out of line.

But some men prefer to talk to women because its more interesting to
learn about their point of view. Some men dont want to be constantly
challenged by other men about the bigger build logs, the best code or
(Continue reading)

MJ Ray | 1 Feb 11:15 2008

Re: why privacy is mandatory

Patrick Frank <paddy.frank <at> web.de> wrote: [...]
> So it was just politics that were not made visible?
> And they have to be enforced in a violent way?

IMO the politics are clearly visible from the URLs in the topic when
HennaX joined #debian-women in http://pastebin.ca/885288

Enforcement is up to the stakeholders, but this isn't a first for d-w.

[...]
> Some men have the hope that the women they meet are more open minded.
> Some men have the hope that the women they meet are not constantly
> trying to appear cool and superior.

It appears that the politics of prejudice is something in common!  Men
do this, women do that?  Get over it.

> But the following is addressed to all Debian Developers.
>
> All I ever wanted was to be part of the debian community and contribute.

So contribute:- http://www.debian.org/devel/join/

[...]
> Thats very much frustrating when human rights apply to a piece of paper
> that is used to represent a software license, but human rights do not
> apply to all the people who use Debian and who care for Debian.

It's frustrating, but this has been known to me since at least 2005
and was reaffirmed on this list late last year.  I doubt I'm the first
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Patrick Frank | 1 Feb 13:18 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

MJ Ray wrote:

> [...]
> > Some men have the hope that the women they meet are more open
> > minded. Some men have the hope that the women they meet are not
> > constantly trying to appear cool and superior.

> It appears that the politics of prejudice is something in common!
> Men do this, women do that?  Get over it.

This is not prejudice at all.

The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: i.e. making a decision
before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event.

Example: this paddy must be a troll lets flame him

Some people might think that my statements that you quoted sound
like generalisms. In the context of feminism quite a few people
ride this anti-generalisms horse, because they think it reduces
the personality of the people that are addressed.

But I was not aiming for that.

I expressed a simplified observation - familiarity proximity bias
formed from a non-statistically valid sample.

People use generalisms all the time, because you can not talk about
anything without doing it.

(Continue reading)

MJ Ray | 1 Feb 14:50 2008

Re: why privacy is mandatory

Patrick Frank <paddy.frank <at> web.de> wrote:
> MJ Ray wrote:
> > It appears that the politics of prejudice is something in common!
> > Men do this, women do that?  Get over it.
>
> This is not prejudice at all.
>
> The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: i.e. making a decision
> before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event.

I guess that depends whether one thinks "being a man" is relevant to
the decision of what actions to predict.  If it's based on something
not statistically significant, is it unreliable?

[...]
> > If anyone wants to change [the violent communication], please
> > figure out how to persuade people that basic human rights should
> > be affirmed by debian as a project.
>
> The person who made all the postings on this mailing list [...]
> tried exactly that. And the result was pretty violent feedback.

I think that demonstrates it wasn't figured out and someone else needs
to try.  Changing masks, rinsing and repeating won't wash.

[...]
> The Cathedral and the Bazaar story? 
> You all remember?

Not to comment on the actual point, but we can't assume that CatB
(Continue reading)

Clint Adams | 1 Feb 17:02 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 01:35:01PM +0100, Patrick "Ballpark" Frank wrote:
> But lets have a look at http://pastebin.ca/885288 again and see how
> HennaX started the chat when he joined that channel. He asked if he
> has to reveal private data. A person answered him that he does not

Speaking of private data, you have published an IRC log without
first securing permission from all the participants. Personally, I
detest people who do this even on channels where there is no explicit
policy forbidding such behavior, so to point out that you have done so
with one of those channels seems almost superfluous.

I consider this to be an unpleasant form of violence.

Patrick Frank | 1 Feb 22:01 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

Clint Adams <schizo <at> debian.org> wrote:

> Speaking of private data, you have published an IRC log without
> first securing permission from all the participants. Personally, I
> detest people who do this even on channels where there is no explicit
> policy forbidding such behavior, so to point out that you have done so
> with one of those channels seems almost superfluous.

irc.oftc.net is a so called public communication network as it does not
forcibly authenticate its users.

As soon as you make a posting on that network its no longer private.

Thank you for playing this ball. The point is proven now how wrong it
it is to force people to set their realname in chat clients and to
force them to introduce themselves on channels. As this removes the
possibility from individuals to stay private with certain data on a
public network.

And regarding logging - Debian Developers do that since years and
publish logs on websites. If you resolve the legal aspects I am your
happy guest, Clint.

> I consider this to be an unpleasant form of violence.

I am sorry. It was not my intention to hurt your feelings. The next
time I make sure to publish a log where people see more of your
comedy talent.

(Continue reading)

Patrick Frank | 1 Feb 22:17 2008
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Re: why privacy is mandatory

MJ Ray <mjr <at> phonecoop.coop> wrote:

> If it's based on something not statistically significant, is it
> unreliable?

Whether my observations are reliable enough for you to value the
point that I try to explain by samples that are valid to me, well,
that is not in my hands.

[paddy is behind everything - why we need black sheeps]

> I think that demonstrates it wasn't figured out and someone else
> needs to try.  Changing masks, rinsing and repeating won't wash.

If you are waiting for Jesus to come down on you and hold your hand
then I cant help it.

I am not a negative person. So I was not assuming the situation is
really that hopeless so the Mesias himself is required, to hold up
positive ethics and demand more people skills.

> Not to comment on the actual point, but we can't assume that CatB
> is universally accepted:-

I have seen people talk bad about Ian Murdock.
I have seen people talk bad about Richard Stallman.
I have seen people talk bad about Eric Steven Raymond.

Often it was pure jealousy that such celebrities have something
the other people dont have who try to give people bad reputation.
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Anibal Monsalve Salazar | 3 Feb 01:35 2008
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Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring

With the upload of debian-maintainers version 1.18, the following
changes to the keyring have been made:

dm:jak <at> jak-linux.org
    Full name: Julian Andres Klode
    Added key: D9D9754A4BBA2E7D0A0AC024AC2A5FFE00823EC2

A summary of all the changes in this upload follows.

Debian distribution maintenance software,
on behalf of,
Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal <at> debian.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.7
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 09:34:11 +1100
Source: debian-maintainers
Binary: debian-maintainers
Architecture: source all
Version: 1.18
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Debian Maintainer Keyring Team <d-m-team <at> lists.alioth.debian.org>
Changed-By: Anibal Monsalve Salazar <anibal <at> debian.org>
Description: 
 debian-maintainers - GPG keys of Debian maintainers
Closes: 459238
Changes: 
(Continue reading)

Aníbal Monsalve Salazar | 4 Feb 06:00 2008
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linux.conf.au 2008 articles about or related to debian

The following articles were from linux.conf.au 2008 and are
about (or related to) debian.

Why companies don't support Debian
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7228053130.html
http://lwn.net/Articles/267369/

Why don't corporates love Debian?
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16315/1090/

A conversation with Martin Michlmayr
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16399/1090/

Lead, kindly light: Debian shows the way
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16427/1090/

Next Debian release by year-end... maybe
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16309/1090/

Time and tide don't wait for FOSS projects
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16347/1154/

Each one, make one - the distro debate
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16340/1154/

The following article was mentioned during anibal and niv's
presentation.

Another sub-$200 Linux PC?
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9852687-7.html?tag=newsmap
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Gmane