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David Hansen | 1 Dec 2009 08:32
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Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

On 30 Nov 2009 at 17:46, Andrew Cormack wrote:

> And this is going to protect us from terrorists?

I suppose what it is going to protect us from depends on which week it 
is. Next week it will be protecting us against "identity theft", the 
week after immigrants and so on.

--

-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents 
me   
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54
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Ian Batten | 1 Dec 2009 09:49

Re: Identity card has standard security questions???


On 1 Dec 2009, at 07:32, David Hansen wrote:

> On 30 Nov 2009 at 17:46, Andrew Cormack wrote:
>
>> And this is going to protect us from terrorists?
>
> I suppose what it is going to protect us from depends on which week it
> is. Next week it will be protecting us against "identity theft", the
> week after immigrants and so on.

Currently, the only thing Labour can say in its favour is that it  
protects 18 year olds from being refused service in pubs.   Quite why  
someone would want an obscure card only valid in a small number of  
establishments in one city when they can have a national card for a  
fraction of the money is a total mystery.

ian
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Roland Perry | 1 Dec 2009 10:42

Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

In article <7A6C0326-D459-40F7-9D4E-FA9BA20B7A77@...>,
Ian 
Batten <igb@...> writes
>Currently, the only thing Labour can say in its favour is that it 
>protects 18 year olds from being refused service in pubs.   Quite why 
>someone would want an obscure card only valid in a small number of 
>establishments in one city when they can have a national card for a 
>fraction of the money is a total mystery.

It sounds a little sub-optimal to me if this "National" ID card is only 
accepted in some places. While it's clear that a rollout is likely to be 
phased simply for logistical reasons, it doesn't seem to me right that 
acceptance of the card should also have any phasing aspect.

Meanwhile, do we know yet, for sure, if it allows passport-less travel 
inside the EU? Or only if the holder is also a UK Citizen? (Remember, 
boys and girls, the first wave of ID cards was supposed to be aimed at 
migrant aliens (from outside EEA+CH) with some kind of residency 
status).
--

-- 
Roland Perry
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Peter Tomlinson | 1 Dec 2009 10:52
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Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

Roland Perry wrote:
> (Remember, boys and girls, the first wave of ID cards was supposed to 
> be aimed at migrant aliens (from outside EEA+CH) with some kind of 
> residency status).
As far as I am aware, that is exactly who those cards (eBorders cards) 
are issued to (although I didn't know about CH). But whether they are 
linked to the main ID card databases [1], I doubt.

Peter

[1] As explained recently by Mystic Meg, there are two databases a la 
2006 redesign of the architecture: credentials and biometrics. (Don't 
get me wrong: the lady is being very honest with us.)
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Ian Batten | 1 Dec 2009 10:55

Re: Identity card has standard security questions???


On 1 Dec 2009, at 09:42, Roland Perry wrote:

> In article <7A6C0326-D459-40F7-9D4E-FA9BA20B7A77@...>,
Ian  
> Batten <igb@...> writes
>> Currently, the only thing Labour can say in its favour is that it  
>> protects 18 year olds from being refused service in pubs.   Quite  
>> why someone would want an obscure card only valid in a small number  
>> of establishments in one city when they can have a national card  
>> for a fraction of the money is a total mystery.
>
> It sounds a little sub-optimal to me if this "National" ID card is  
> only accepted in some places. While it's clear that a rollout is  
> likely to be phased simply for logistical reasons, it doesn't seem  
> to me right that acceptance of the card should also have any phasing  
> aspect.

It's the way it has to be.  Anyone can use a laminator to make thing  
that says it's an ID card: it's only going to be acceptable to  
publicans frightened for their licenses if they have good reason to  
believe it's real and legally acceptable.  There's a lot of focus in  
the existing national schemes in making sure that license-holders know  
what a good document looks like: see
http://www.brc.org.uk/pass/default.asp?section_id=4&content_id=0 
  for example.   I believe from a publican acquaintance that the  
current advice is photocard driving license (because it's assumed most  
people know what one looks like), passport (ditto) or something with  
the PASS hologram on it.
(Continue reading)

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Peter Tomlinson | 1 Dec 2009 11:53
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Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

Ian Batten wrote:
> I can't see why a publican who hasn't been told to accept these 
> strange ID card things would do so, which is why the Home Office were 
> visiting licensed premises in Manchester to get them on board.  The 
> whole reason for the PASS scheme, and its predecessor the Portman 
> Group scheme, was because there had been a rise in private `ID' card 
> schemes which were for practical purposes worthless. 
An aside: local pub recently (Bristol). 6 young men (or are they really 
boys?) walk in, find a table in an alcove. Subdued lighting. One of the 
group goes to the bar. Is asked for ID. Barmaid looks at the photocard, 
says: "I know him, I was at school with him" - and the pic is not of the 
youth who presented it. Youth quickly retires (of course they expected 
that bar staff would be students who don't come from here, but this 
barmaid is at Uni in her home town) and they all leave quietly.
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Roger Hird | 1 Dec 2009 12:21
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Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

In article
<6ED388AA006C454BA35B0098396B9BFB0645AFA1@...>,
   Andrew Cormack <Andrew.Cormack@...> wrote:
> PM have just broadcast an interview with the first Mancunian to
> buy an ID card. One of the features was "choosing five security
> questions, like what is your favourite food".

I have one or two accounts/websites using this security question
method.  I find it quite difficult - in both cases I invent
answers and carefully record them somewhere - not very secure I
know - but my mind doesn't run in terms of favourite food, best
friend etc - and even "first school" isn't helpful beacuase I've
long forgotten - if I ever knew - the name of the school where I
spent my first few months before moving to another town.

Has there been any serious investigation of how effective this
"question" methodology is, or how easy/difficult users find it?

RogerH

--

-- 
Roger Hird
rl.hird@...
Website: http://roger.hird.orpheusweb.co.uk
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Ian Batten | 1 Dec 2009 12:46

Re: Identity card has standard security questions???


On 01 Dec 09, at 1121, Roger Hird wrote:
>
> Has there been any serious investigation of how effective this
> "question" methodology is, or how easy/difficult users find it?

My mother has had a run-in with her bank over this.  She points out  
that at seventy whatever, the concept of `favourite whatever',  
singular, is total nonsense.   And that for people who are younger, it  
may work, but won't be constant over time.

ian
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Andrew Cormack | 1 Dec 2009 13:14

RE: Identity card has standard security questions???

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ukcrypto-bounces@... [mailto:ukcrypto-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Ian Batten
> Sent: 01 December 2009 11:46
> To: UK Cryptography Policy Discussion Group
> Subject: Re: Identity card has standard security questions???
> 
> 
> On 01 Dec 09, at 1121, Roger Hird wrote:
> >
> > Has there been any serious investigation of how effective this
> > "question" methodology is, or how easy/difficult users find it?
> 
> My mother has had a run-in with her bank over this.  She points out
> that at seventy whatever, the concept of `favourite whatever',
> singular, is total nonsense.   And that for people who are younger, it
> may work, but won't be constant over time.

But they'll probably keep "favourite food" (the example quoted on the
radio) bang up to date on their social networking site du jour :-(

Andrew
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Kevin Townsend | 1 Dec 2009 12:14
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Re: Identity card has standard security questions???

When I was 16, I used to visit the pub up the road during my school
lunch break. Are there many of us who didn't buy a drink in a pub
before we were 18? It's the alcohol that causes problems, not the age
of the drinker.

+44 1865 58 9292
Skype: kevtownsend

2009/12/1 Peter Tomlinson <pwt@...>:
> Ian Batten wrote:
>>
>> I can't see why a publican who hasn't been told to accept these strange ID
>> card things would do so, which is why the Home Office were visiting licensed
>> premises in Manchester to get them on board.  The whole reason for the PASS
>> scheme, and its predecessor the Portman Group scheme, was because there had
>> been a rise in private `ID' card schemes which were for practical purposes
>> worthless.
>
> An aside: local pub recently (Bristol). 6 young men (or are they really
> boys?) walk in, find a table in an alcove. Subdued lighting. One of the
> group goes to the bar. Is asked for ID. Barmaid looks at the photocard,
> says: "I know him, I was at school with him" - and the pic is not of the
> youth who presented it. Youth quickly retires (of course they expected that
> bar staff would be students who don't come from here, but this barmaid is at
> Uni in her home town) and they all leave quietly.
>
>
>
(Continue reading)

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Gmane