Behcet Sarikaya | 1 Dec 2011 01:17
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Roberta,

I don't see that a problem either because usually you can install an aggregate route.

Regards,

Behcet

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione-hVUuyuLkUUT++UuDkfx/2g@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Behcet,
  the reason why you may need to have a single prefix instead of two per customer is in order to have just a single route to install on the BNG instead of two.

Regards
Roberta
________________________________________
From: Behcet Sarikaya [sarikaya2012-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:22 AM
To: Maglione Roberta
Cc: Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Hi Roberta,

You don't need to restrict yourself to the use of a single prefix in IPv6. Usually DR can allocate many prefixes to the RR.

Besides these prefixes are used for some time and then not needed any more. I don't see any reason to be so frugal.

Regards,

Behcet

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione <at> telecomitalia.it<mailto:roberta.maglione-hVUuyuLkUUT++UuDkfx/2g@public.gmane.org>> wrote:
> If you're not using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE, then you can make the link unnumbered and you don't need to exclude
> anything.

You could make the link unnumbered, but the WAN link could also be numbered.
If you refer to BBF TR-187, TR-177, TR-124i2  you can see that both unnumbered and numbered  are considered valid scenarios.
PD-exclude is need in order to build the WAN numbered scenario with a single  prefix.

Roberta

________________________________________
From: Lorenzo Colitti [lorenzo <at> google.com<mailto:lorenzo <at> google.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:24 PM
To: Maglione Roberta
Cc: jouni korhonen; v6ops-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org<mailto:v6ops-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 04:12, Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione <at> telecomitalia.it<mailto:roberta.maglione-hVUuyuLkUUT++UuDkfx/2g@public.gmane.org><mailto:roberta.maglione-hVUuyuLkUUT++UuDkfx/2g@public.gmane.org<mailto:roberta.maglione <at> telecomitalia.it>>> wrote:
PD-exclude allows to delegate a single prefix to the home network and than use the PD-exclude option to tell the CPE to exclude a portion of the delegated prefix and use it to number the point to point WAN link between the requesting router (CPE) and the delegated router (BNG)

I still don't see why this is needed.

If you're using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE router, then the CE router already knows that the /64 is assigned to that link via the O bit in the prefix information option in the RA.

If you're not using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE, then you can make the link unnumbered and you don't need to exclude anything.

So...?

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Maglione Roberta | 1 Dec 2011 02:16
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Yes you can install the aggregate route but you would need either another dhc option that tells the BNG what
aggregate route needs to be installed per each customer or you have to do by manual configuration.
In my opinion using PD-exclude is operational much simpler

Roberta
________________________________________
From: Behcet Sarikaya [sarikaya2012@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 1:17 AM
To: Maglione Roberta
Cc: Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@...
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Roberta,

I don't see that a problem either because usually you can install an aggregate route.

Regards,

Behcet

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Maglione Roberta
<roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...>> wrote:
Behcet,
  the reason why you may need to have a single prefix instead of two per customer is in order to have just a single
route to install on the BNG instead of two.

Regards
Roberta
________________________________________
From: Behcet Sarikaya [sarikaya2012@...<mailto:sarikaya2012@...>]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:22 AM
To: Maglione Roberta
Cc: Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@...<mailto:v6ops@...>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Hi Roberta,

You don't need to restrict yourself to the use of a single prefix in IPv6. Usually DR can allocate many
prefixes to the RR.

Besides these prefixes are used for some time and then not needed any more. I don't see any reason to be so frugal.

Regards,

Behcet

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Maglione Roberta
<roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...><mailto:roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...>>> wrote:
> If you're not using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE, then you can make the link
unnumbered and you don't need to exclude
> anything.

You could make the link unnumbered, but the WAN link could also be numbered.
If you refer to BBF TR-187, TR-177, TR-124i2  you can see that both unnumbered and numbered  are considered
valid scenarios.
PD-exclude is need in order to build the WAN numbered scenario with a single  prefix.

Roberta

________________________________________
From: Lorenzo Colitti [lorenzo@...<mailto:lorenzo@...><mailto:lorenzo@...<mailto:lorenzo@...>>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:24 PM
To: Maglione Roberta
Cc: jouni korhonen; v6ops@...<mailto:v6ops@...><mailto:v6ops@...<mailto:v6ops@...>>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 04:12, Maglione Roberta
<roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...><mailto:roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...>><mailto:roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...><mailto:roberta.maglione@...<mailto:roberta.maglione@...>>>> wrote:
PD-exclude allows to delegate a single prefix to the home network and than use the PD-exclude option to tell
the CPE to exclude a portion of the delegated prefix and use it to number the point to point WAN link between
the requesting router (CPE) and the delegated router (BNG)

I still don't see why this is needed.

If you're using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE router, then the CE router already knows
that the /64 is assigned to that link via the O bit in the prefix information option in the RA.

If you're not using the /64 to number the link between the BNG and the CE, then you can make the link unnumbered
and you don't need to exclude anything.

So...?

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La
diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono
rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente
pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the
addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by
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Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La
diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono
rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente
pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the
addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are
not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by
return e-mail, Thanks.

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La
diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono
rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente
pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

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Hemant Singh (shemant | 1 Dec 2011 06:58
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

 

From: v6ops-bounces-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Lorenzo Colitti
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:17 PM
To: Ole Troan
Cc: v6ops-EgrivxUAwEY@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

 

 

>For example, what is an implementation supposed to do if it gets a PD of 2001:db8:1::/56 with an exclude for 2001:db8:1:2::/64? What's the next hop for 2001:db8:1:2::/64?

 

If I read the exclude document (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dhc-pd-exclude-03), I see that the /64 above is used on the RR for the link between the RR and the DR.    Since the DR is the first-hop router for the RR (section 3 of the exclude document says so), the next-hop for the global /64 above is the IPv6 link-local address of the DR.  See also this text from section 6.1 of the exclude document.

 

[The requesting router must create sink routes for the delegated

prefixes minus the excluded prefixes.  This may be done by creating

sink routes for delegated prefixes and more specific routes for the

excluded prefixes.]

 

I could use a /128 from the excluded /64 on any virtual interface to source ICMPv6 errors.

 

Hemant

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jouni korhonen | 1 Dec 2011 11:13
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Lorenzo,

We got into this by the gentle guidance form IETF how to do it. It was quite a long ago already.. and discussed
quite extensively in DHC WG. Now also part of Rel-10 in 3GPP.

- Jouni

On Nov 30, 2011, at 10:12 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:03, Vízdal Aleš <ales.vizdal@...> wrote:
> the Prefix Delegation RFC 3633 states a limitation in section 12.1 that 'a prefix delegated to a
requesting router cannot be used by the delegating router'. This limitation is a problem for the 3GPP case
where they have standardised that the link prefix (/64) and the delegated prefix shall be aggregatable to
a single prefix. So, you can use pd-exclude to signal the prefix part
> 
> in use.
> 
> 
> Fine, but if the only problem is that text, then why do we need a new option? Can't we just say somewhere that
if the part of the prefix is used to connect the requesting router to the network, then the network MUST
signal that to the client using some other means such as an RA? 

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Ole Troan | 1 Dec 2011 11:47
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Lorenzo,

> > Why using “some other means” when  you can achieve this behavior with just a single DHCPv6 message
with DHCPv6-PD plus PD-exclude option?
> 
> indeed. you can't first delegate a prefix to some other administrative entity, and then expect to be able
to take that back without explicit signaling. if you did this through an RA or a routing protocol or some
other means, you still have to handle potential conflicts. signalling up front is a lot cleaner and it
avoids the corner cases.
> 
> Signaling exclusion by itself is not sufficient, because you also need to tell the requesting router
where the excluded prefix is.

no.

> For example, what is an implementation supposed to do if it gets a PD of 2001:db8:1::/56 with an exclude for
2001:db8:1:2::/64? What's the next hop for 2001:db8:1:2::/64? Discard? It needs to know, at least for
the purpose of sending unreachables.

normal RIB lookup. i.e. will follow default.

> Since you need to tell the requesting router where the prefix is anyway, you might as well just tell it where
it is and not bother to tell it that the prefix is excluded.

cheers,
Ole

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Ole Troan | 1 Dec 2011 11:51
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Hemant,

> >For example, what is an implementation supposed to do if it gets a PD of 2001:db8:1::/56 with an exclude
for 2001:db8:1:2::/64? What's the next hop for 2001:db8:1:2::/64?
>  
> If I read the exclude document (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dhc-pd-exclude-03), I see
that the /64 above is used on the RR for the link between the RR and the DR.    Since the DR is the first-hop router
for the RR (section 3 of the exclude document says so), the next-hop for the global /64 above is the IPv6
link-local address of the DR.  See also this text from section 6.1 of the exclude document.

that's not what pd-exclude says. the excluded prefix is _not_ delegated to the RR.

> [The requesting router must create sink routes for the delegated
> prefixes minus the excluded prefixes.  This may be done by creating
> sink routes for delegated prefixes and more specific routes for the
> excluded prefixes.]
>  
> I could use a /128 from the excluded /64 on any virtual interface to source ICMPv6 errors.

not on the RR no. unless the excluded prefix is signaled in e.g. an RA from the DR.

cheers,
Ole
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Mark Townsley | 1 Dec 2011 12:22

Section 4.4 of 6204-bis


I finally got a chance to go through section 4.4 and provide specific comments. In short, it should come as no surprise that I think this section needs work. Please see inline as well as the conclusion towards the end.

Thanks,

- Mark


4.4. Transition Technologies Support

4.4.1. 6rd

The IPv6 CE Router can be used to offer IPv6 service to a LAN, even when the WAN access network only supports IPv4. One technology that supports IPv6 service over an IPv4 network is IPv6 Rapid Deployment (6rd). 6rd encapsulates IPv6 traffic from the end user LAN inside IPv4 at the IPv6 CE Router and sends it to a Service Provider Border Relay (BR). The IPv6 CE Router calculates a 6rd delegated IPv6 prefix during 6rd configuration, and sub-delegates the 6rd delegated prefix to devices in the LAN.

IMHO, the above is just making the document longer. You can simply include the sentence below. RFC 5969 is a normative, so you can rely on the reader to go read it. 

The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD implement 6rd functionality as specified in [RFC5969]. 6rd requirements: 6RD-1: If the IPv6 CE Router implements 6rd functionality, the CE Router WAN interface MUST support at least one 6rd Virtual Interface.

6rd is implemented with a "6rd virtual interface" (see terminology section of RFC 5969) which is not bound to a WAN interface as you are suggesting in this requirement. I would remove the requirement altogether, as it is part of RFC 5969 anyway, and by re-specifying we run the risk of introducing inconsistencies. 


6RD-2: If the IPv6 CE router implements 6rd functionality, it MUST support 6rd configuration via the 6rd DHCPv4 Option (212) and if the IPv6 CE router is capable of automated configuration of IPv4 through IPCP (i.e., over a PPP connection), it MUST support user-entered configuration of 6rd.

Why not just say it MUST support DHCPv4 option 212 and Manual configuration and stop at that? If we are going to include manual config, it is effectively *always* an option, not just for PPP or any other type of access link. Just make it a MUST and be done.

Further, if we are going to mention PPP, rather than falling back to manual only, why not allow DHCP configuration after PPP IPCP is finished?

From RFC2131: "DHCPINFORM   -  Client to server, asking only for local configuration parameters; client already has externally configured network address."

Back when the PPP folks actively decided to stop duplicating DHCP functionality in IPCP, this was the recommended approach (and Windows stacks and the like actually try to obtain additional parameters for PPP connections after IPCP comes up, though often the network does not have any additional parameters to give...). This gives PPP connections a pretty decent chance to work with 6rd automatically, using the same DHCP configuration as non-PPP. 


The IPv6 CE router MAY use other mechanisms to configure 6rd parameters. Such mechanisms are outside the scope of this document.

Seems obvious, but OK. 

6RD-3: If the CE router implements 6rd functionality, it MUST allow the user to specify whether all IPv6 traffic goes to the 6rd Border Relay, or whether IPv6 traffic to other destinations within the same 6rd domain are routed directly to those Singh, et al. Expires May 25, 2012 [Page 13] Internet-Draft IPv6 CE Router Requirements November 2011 destinations. The CE router MAY use other mechanisms to configure this. Such mechanisms are outside the scope of this document.

Do you really mean the "user" is supposed to be able to specify whether IPv6 traffic always going through the BR, or the "operator" is supposed to be able to specify this?

This behavior, while straight-forward to implement as it is effectively removing a more-specific route on the 6rd virtual interface, is out of scope of RFC 5969 as currently defined. There is no way to specify this in DHCPv4 configuration. One might be able to configure this from the network with PIO or DHCPv6 route options in a general manner, but this hasn't been specified anywhere that I am aware of within the context of 6rd. I understand the BBF has included some specifics around this, and perhaps it is best if those requirements stay in the BBF or at least we provide a reference to them from here. Otherwise, this requirement remains under-specified as written, and if expounded would effectively be an update (in the formal sense) to RFC 5969. 

6RD-4: If 6rd is operational on the IPv6 CE Router, multicast data MUST NOT be sent on any 6rd tunnel.

As long as the high-level requirement is RFC 5969 only, there is no need to mention multicast. If in the future someone implements 6rd multicast (there are drafts on it), why stop them? Best to just remove this (non-)requirement from the document.

6RD-5: The CE Router MUST NOT forward 6RD traffic over a DS-Lite ([RFC6333]) tunnel.

Again, why over-specify? Sure, the operational steps you take should not lead you down this path, but if the router is following a logical set of routing and virtual interface constructs, this would just work. Why make the CE vendor go out of their way to check to see if this is happening and drop packets? 

4.4.2. Dual-Stack Lite(DS-Lite)

Even as users migrate from IPv4 to IPv6 addressing, a significant percentage of Internet resources and content will remain accessible only through IPv4. Also, many end-user devices will only support IPv4. As a consequence, Service Providers require mechanisms to allow customers to continue to access content and resources using IPv4 even after the last IPv4 allocations have been fully depleted. One technology that can be used for IPv4 address extension is DS- Lite. DS-Lite enables a Service Provider to share IPv4 addresses among multiple customers by combining two well-known technologies: IP in IP (IPv4-in-IPv6) tunneling and Carrier Grade NAT. More specifically, Dual-Stack-Lite encapsulates IPv4 traffic inside an IPv6 tunnel at the IPv6 CE Router and sends it to a Service Provider Address Family Transition Router (AFTR). Configuration of the IPv6 CE Router to support IPv4 LAN traffic is outside the scope of this document.

IMHO - As with the 6rd "summary" text, I think the most important line is the following one, and the previous paragraphs may be omitted or shrunk to one or two lines at best. 


The IPv6 CE Router SHOULD implement DS-Lite functionality as specified in [RFC6333]. WAN requirements: DLW-1: To facilitate IPv4 extension over an IPv6 network, if the CE Router supports DS-Lite functionality, the CE Router WAN interface MUST implement a B4 Interface as specified in [RFC6333].

As with the "6rd interface" case, this really seems repetitive. It should be sufficient to say "implement DS-Lite" ... Also, virtual interfaces are not tied to any physical interfaces per se, they exist independently. They may be used for WAN connectivity, but they are a fully separate interface in terms of the RIB and such. 

DLW-2: If the IPv6 CE Router implements DS-Lite functionality, the CE Router MUST support using a DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334] to configure the DS-Lite tunnel. The IPv6 CE Router MAY use other mechanisms to configure DS-Lite parameters. Such mechanisms are outside the scope of this document. Singh, et al. Expires May 25, 2012 [Page 14] Internet-Draft IPv6 CE Router Requirements November 2011 DLW-3: IPv6 CE Router MUST NOT perform IPv4 Network Address Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encapsulated using DS-Lite. DLW-4: If the IPv6 CE Router is configured with a public IPv4 address on its WAN interface, where public IPv4 address is defined as any address which is not in the private IP address space specified in [RFC5735], then the IPv6 CE Router SHOULD disable the DS-Lite B4 element.

This is very bad direction.

DS-Lite was designed to combat Private IPv4 Address Exhaustion, and you have a requirement that talks about the CPE receiving not only a Public but a Private IPv4 address and tying specific behavior to that? 

Where is the requirement that if DS-Lite is configured, the CPE should not be expected to receive an IPv4 address at all on its WAN interface so that it doesn't hammer the network asking for one? Or, (and perhaps this is better) the recommended way for DHCPv4 (and PPP IPCP) to tell the CPE that it has no IPv4 and not to ask for it (so we don't repeat the "DHCPv6 storm" problem talked about so much here)? 

That's what we should be defining here, or you have hamstrung the whole point of DS-Lite which was to reduce the number of IPv4 addresses (public or private!) needed by the access network. The CPE MUST be able to operate in the *absence* of an IPv4 address on its WAN interface! That's the requirement we need here!

Also, specific nits on the above wording (though I think the whole requirement is in question): 

- "RFC 5735 private IP address space" is just an indirection to RFC 1918, just call it RFC 1918. 
- I see a possible conflict here with the /10 space that may or may not be allocated for CGN deployment.


DLW-5: If DS-Lite is operational on the IPv6 CE Router, multicast data MUST NOT be sent on any DS-Lite tunnel.

Why not? As with the similar 6rd requirement, please just leave this out. Why hamstring future efforts to define multicast here?


DLW-6: The CE Router MUST NOT forward DS-Lite traffic over a 6RD tunnel.

Why make a requirement on the forwarding path here? Sure, it is probably bad operational practice to configure a CE such that it would end up with a routing path that did this, but this kind of requirement forces the CE to actually check on the forwarding path whether this is occurring and drop the packet if it does. A CE could easily misinterpret this as filtering all Protocol 41 traffic. Not to mention, this could end up becoming a test case for certification. 

In general: Let's please avoid making any sort of laundry lists of MUST NOTs around negative cases. We're better off defining MUSTs for things we want to happen. 

4.4.3. Transition Technologies Coexistence

Supporting transition technologies that may coexist with native service requires control over provisioning and sunsetting. Some guidelines follow: 1. Initiate native IPv4/IPv6 provisioning (e.g. via DHCP) simultaneously. 2. After IPv4 provisioning completes, if 6rd parameters are obtained from the DHCPv4 transaction or configured on the device, initiate 6rd. 3. After IPv6 provisioning completes, if DS-Lite parameters are obtained from the DHCPv6 transaction or configured on the device, initiate DS-Lite. 4. Routes over the DS-Lite tunnel always have a higher administrative distance than native IPv4 routes.

higher or lower? Do you want traffic to prefer native or tunneled here? I read this as preferring native IPv4, but perhaps the real goal is to prefer IPv6?

5. Selection of 6rd tunnel or native IPv6 output interface on the CE router is determined by the source IPv6 address of the packet from a host, when different prefixes are available over 6rd vs. native IPv6. If the two interfaces provide the CE router with the same prefix, then the CE router prefers the native IPv6 interface to the 6rd interface for forwarding traffic out the WAN when both 6rd and native IPv6 interfaces are active.

This is close, but I think it would be much better to define the multihoming requirements generically and have 6rd just be one special case. 

6. The CE router messages to the host the use of native IPv6 in preference to 6rd, in the case where the two interfaces use different prefixes.

"CE router messages to the host" - with what, a new protocol? The host does what it wants with the prefixes it has, the router is a slave to its source selection and has to route out the appropriate interface accordingly. This is "the curse of end-to-end" to quote Lorenzo. 

During a sunsetting activity such as deprecating 6rd and moving to Singh, et al. Expires May 25, 2012 [Page 15] Internet-Draft IPv6 CE Router Requirements November 2011 native IPv6, the IPv6 CE router MUST immediately advertise the 6rd prefix with a Preferred Lifetime of zero and a Valid Lifetime of the lower of the current Valid Lifetime and two hours (which must be decremented in real time) in a Router Advertisement message as described in Section 5.5.3, (e) of [RFC4862].

"The CE route MUST immediately advertise the 6rd prefix.... "  when? when "during a sunsetting activity" ? How do you trigger that in software? As an implementor, I would have no idea what this MUST really means. 

The heart of the problem here is *over-specification*. All the CPE needs to do is to deprecate the address when its lifetime expires just like any other prefix. This will happen naturally once the DHCPv4 lease that 6rd was provisioned with expires and no new 6rd option arrives with the renewal (if there is any MUST needed, it's at this stage). So: No special cases. No immediate interrupts to do this or that. No new case() statements specifically for 6rd, 6rd+native, 6rd+native+ds-lite, etc. Just the normal code run through when interfaces come up and down and prefixes are timed out. Nothing special. No surprises.

Due to the two hours rule specified in [RFC4862], the 6rd and the native IPv6 prefix will coexist in the home network. The two hours rule specified in section 5.5.3 of [RFC4862] causes any deprecated prefix to linger on the node even when an RA has sent a Preferred Lifetime of zero to expire the prefix to the node. During such coexistence of multiple prefixes, the CE router sends an ICMPv6 error for packets sourced or destined related to the deprecated prefix. Note this document already includes text in bullet L-14 in section 4.3 for such a provision.

Pointing out the two hour issue is fine, as well as what to do with deprecated prefixes, but this is *all* normal mutlihoming/renumbering procedures. We would be far better off defining this generally, and letting 6rd + native just fall in line happily as any other case where there are two interfaces with prefixes assigned. 

I'm afraid that the requirements as written will lead to a lot of inconsistency. Let's please reuse basic routing design constructs and apply defaults as we need them. For example:

When DS-Lite is configured, it is represented as a virtual interface that happens to only have IPv4 configured on it. When 6rd is configured it is an interface that just happens to only have IPv6 configured on it. If the ISP configures native IPv4 at the same time, that's it's business. If the ISP configures native IPv6 at the same time, that's also it's business. The CPE should accept these configurations, advertise prefixes and assign addressed on the LAN side accordingly, and then ensure that when packets are sent upstream they get sent to the right native or virtual interface (and associated RIB) and forwarded accordingly. The upstream decisions are based on source routing, longest prefix match, and metrics for each of the interfaces for which we define the defaults for. The virtual interfaces handle how to encap, decap, NAT, not-NAT, etc. 

I think this approach will lead to a much simpler set of specific requirements, far more consistency of behavior, and resiliency in the face of variant operational approaches. 

- Mark




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Hemant Singh (shemant | 1 Dec 2011 15:02
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Ole,

-----Original Message-----
From: Ole Troan [mailto:ichiroumakino@...] On Behalf Of Ole Troan
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:52 AM
Cc: Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@...; jouni korhonen
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

>that's not what pd-exclude says. the excluded prefix is _not_ delegated
to the RR.

OK.  However the excluded prefix is used by the DR on the link to the RR
and the DR is the first-hop router to the RR.  So why wouldn't the RR
and DR be on-link for the excluded prefix?  Or does the exclude document
assume a unnumbered WAN?  

>not on the RR no. unless the excluded prefix is signaled in e.g. an RA
from the DR.

I had assumed the fact.  See my on-link response above.

Hemant
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jouni korhonen | 1 Dec 2011 15:39
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Brian,

Getting that happen is quite unlikely. Rel-10 is already frozen.

- Jouni

On Nov 30, 2011, at 10:57 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 2011-12-01 09:12, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:03, Vízdal Aleš
<ales.vizdal@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> the Prefix Delegation RFC 3633 states a limitation in section 12.1 that 'a
>>> prefix delegated to a requesting router cannot be used by the delegating
>>> router'. This limitation is a problem for the 3GPP case where they have
>>> standardised that the link prefix (/64) and the delegated prefix shall be
>>> aggregatable to a single prefix. So, you can use pd-exclude to signal the
>>> prefix part in use.
>>> 
>> 
>> Fine, but if the only problem is that text, then why do we need a new
>> option? Can't we just say somewhere that if the part of the prefix is used
>> to connect the requesting router to the network, then the network MUST
>> signal that to the client using some other means such as an RA?
> 
> Better would be for someone who visits 3GPP land to persuade them to remove
> that restriction, which is obviously annoying.
> 
>    Brian
> 
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Ole Troan | 1 Dec 2011 15:54
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Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-03.txt

Hemant,

>> that's not what pd-exclude says. the excluded prefix is _not_ delegated
> to the RR.
> 
> OK.  However the excluded prefix is used by the DR on the link to the RR
> and the DR is the first-hop router to the RR.  So why wouldn't the RR
> and DR be on-link for the excluded prefix?  Or does the exclude document
> assume a unnumbered WAN?  

the DR (or whomever is in administrative control of that prefix) is free to use the excluded prefix for
whatever it likes.
it may be typical to use that for the prefix on the link between RR and the DR.

>> not on the RR no. unless the excluded prefix is signaled in e.g. an RA
> from the DR.
> 
> I had assumed the fact.  See my on-link response above.

typical I expect, but note that the _DR_ is in control, not the RR.

cheers,
Ole
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Gmane