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Charles Lindsey | 2 Apr 2007 15:19
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Re: ISSUE: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


In <460E807D.14F3 <at> xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann <nobody <at> xyzzy.claranet.de> writes:

>Charles Lindsey wrote:

>> And all I am asking is that it SHOULD resolve.

>For which query types (apart from soa and ns) ?  A type 99 record
>"v=spf1 -all" won't help for the purposes of news (in fact it would
>be very near to pointless without a corresponding SMTP server, MTAs
>can reject MAIL FROM:<whatever <at> news17.news-servers.example.com> if
>there's no IP and no MX, without wasting time for SPF checks).

Even NS would be interesting, if there is nothing else.

>SRV or similar records could be interesting, if the "news-servers"
>at example.com wish to enumerate their hosts news17, etc.  That's
>only a future possibility mentioned in the "URI" I-D so far, and
>it's unrelated to any "SHOULD resolve (some query types TBD)".

>> Then if it doesn't, it immediately draws attention to itself as a
>> cause for suspicion.

>I don't recall a single case where I tried `nslookup -q=any` for a
>path identity, and I looked into the peering database a few times
>while trying to figure out path header fields.  Admittedly I'm more
>interested in mail abuse today.

Actually, I quite often use ANY (with 'dig' rather than 'nslookuop') when
I am not quite sure what I am looking for.
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Harald Tveit Alvestrand | 4 Apr 2007 06:31
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#1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


After having read 5 mails from Frank on the issue, I still am not sure 
whether Frank supports adding it as a tracked issue or not.
But we might as well get on with it.

The issue concerns the following text in USEPRO-07:

   The <path-identity> used by an agent may be chosen via one of the
   following methods (in decreasing order of preference):

   1.  The fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) of the system on which the
       agent is running.

   2.  A fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) within a domain affiliated
       with the administrators of the agent and guaranteed to be unique
       by the administrators of that domain.  For example, the
       uniqueness of server.example.org could be guaranteed by the
       administrator of example.org even if there is no DNS record for
       server.example.org itself.

   3.  Some other (arbitrary) name in the form <path-nodot> believed to
       be unique and registered at least with all the other news servers
       to which that relaying agent or injecting agent sends articles.
       This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier options are
       unavailable or unless the name is of longstanding usage.

As far as I can tell, Charles is proposing that the second option should 
have a "SHOULD NOT be used" attached to it, just like the third.
As far as I can tell, Frank does not see a benefit to such a change.
No other people have contributed to this thread.
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Harald Alvestrand | 4 Apr 2007 08:21
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Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


My technical opinion (chair hat OFF):

The requirement on a path-identity is uniqueness only. Option 2 
guarantees uniqueness as well as option 1 does. Resolvability gives no 
extra value for the uniqueness requirement.

I support "no change required" as the resolution of this issue.

Harald

Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:
>
> After having read 5 mails from Frank on the issue, I still am not sure 
> whether Frank supports adding it as a tracked issue or not.
> But we might as well get on with it.
>
> The issue concerns the following text in USEPRO-07:
>
> The <path-identity> used by an agent may be chosen via one of the
> following methods (in decreasing order of preference):
>
> 1. The fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) of the system on which the
> agent is running.
>
> 2. A fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) within a domain affiliated
> with the administrators of the agent and guaranteed to be unique
> by the administrators of that domain. For example, the
> uniqueness of server.example.org could be guaranteed by the
> administrator of example.org even if there is no DNS record for
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Charles Lindsey | 4 Apr 2007 12:34
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Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


In <08DBF8F69193F92ACDF00313 <at> [192.168.1.108]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald <at> alvestrand.no> writes:

>After having read 5 mails from Frank on the issue, I still am not sure 
>whether Frank supports adding it as a tracked issue or not.
>But we might as well get on with it.

>The issue concerns the following text in USEPRO-07:

>   The <path-identity> used by an agent may be chosen via one of the
>   following methods (in decreasing order of preference):

>   1.  The fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) of the system on which the
>       agent is running.

>   2.  A fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) within a domain affiliated
>       with the administrators of the agent and guaranteed to be unique
>       by the administrators of that domain.  For example, the
>       uniqueness of server.example.org could be guaranteed by the
>       administrator of example.org even if there is no DNS record for
>       server.example.org itself.

>   3.  Some other (arbitrary) name in the form <path-nodot> believed to
>       be unique and registered at least with all the other news servers
>       to which that relaying agent or injecting agent sends articles.
>       This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier options are
>       unavailable or unless the name is of longstanding usage.

>As far as I can tell, Charles is proposing that the second option should 
>have a "SHOULD NOT be used" attached to it, just like the third.
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Harald Alvestrand | 4 Apr 2007 13:45
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Count of senders to this mailing list


I did a count of the senders to this mailing list today, over the last 
14 days.
It seems it's quiet here...

msgs since 21-Mar-2007
  1    9  40.91 "Charles Lindsey" <chl <at> clerew.man.ac.uk>
  2    8  77.27 Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald <at> alvestrand.no>
  3    3  90.91 Frank Ellermann <nobody <at> xyzzy.claranet.de>
  4    2 100.00 Harald Alvestrand <harald <at> alvestrand.no>
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Forrest J. Cavalier III | 4 Apr 2007 14:06

Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


I support no change required.
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Richard Clayton | 4 Apr 2007 14:46

Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In message <JFyyq1.253 <at> clerew.man.ac.uk>, Charles Lindsey
<chl <at> clerew.man.ac.uk> writes

>>   The <path-identity> used by an agent may be chosen via one of the
>>   following methods (in decreasing order of preference):
>
>>   1.  The fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) of the system on which the
>>       agent is running.
>
>>   2.  A fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) within a domain affiliated
>>       with the administrators of the agent and guaranteed to be unique
>>       by the administrators of that domain.  For example, the
>>       uniqueness of server.example.org could be guaranteed by the
>>       administrator of example.org even if there is no DNS record for
>>       server.example.org itself.
>
>>   3.  Some other (arbitrary) name in the form <path-nodot> believed to
>>       be unique and registered at least with all the other news servers
>>       to which that relaying agent or injecting agent sends articles.
>>       This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier options are
>>       unavailable or unless the name is of longstanding usage.
>
>>As far as I can tell, Charles is proposing that the second option should 
>>have a "SHOULD NOT be used" attached to it, just like the third.
>>As far as I can tell, Frank does not see a benefit to such a change.
>>No other people have contributed to this thread.
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Dan Schlitt | 4 Apr 2007 17:48
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Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


I agree with Harald. In my experience running a news server only the
uniqueness of the names on the path was useful.

/dan

--

-- 

Dan Schlitt
schlitt <at> world.std.com
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Ralph Babel from the peanut gallery | 5 Apr 2007 10:14
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Re: Count of senders to this mailing list


Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> It seems it's quiet here...

Usefor ain't dead; it just smells funny.
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Charles Lindsey | 5 Apr 2007 13:32
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Re: #1482: USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as path-identity


In <YfIFxxBc45EGFAgQ <at> highwayman.com> Richard Clayton <richard <at> highwayman.com> writes:

>I reread 2142, and see that it expects either #1 or the top level FQDN
>for the organisation (which #2 covers)

I don't think #2 covers 2142, because if it is neither an MX nor an A
record, then there is no way to send email to
abuse/news/postmaster/whatever  <at>  it.

My main objection to #2 is that I regard it as a sloppy practice which I
don't want to legitimize (thus a guy who wants to do it has to bear the
stigma of breaking a SHOULD NOT - that does not mean the sky will fall
in).

>only the desperate look at the path ... everyone else looks at the
>injection info to find out who to talk to

Sure. You only want to mail someone in the middle of the Path is you want
to draw his attention to some technical problem at his site

>bottom line: I don't see a need for the SHOULD NOT, and I'm not deeply
>in favour of giving 2142 a plug.

I would only give it the mildest of plugs. For sure it would be
informative and not normative.

--

-- 
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
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