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Clive D.W. Feather | 1 Sep 2002 09:42

Re: Final Last Last Last Last straw poll

Russ Allbery said:
> If this had been done when this working group was first started, that RFC
> would have already been published and we would be well into working on new
> work, probably much farther along than we are now.

FX: falls over laughing.

See son-of-1036 for details.

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Russ Allbery | 1 Sep 2002 17:27
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Re: Final Last Last Last Last straw poll

Clive D W Feather <clive <at> demon.net> writes:
> Russ Allbery said:

>> If this had been done when this working group was first started, that RFC
>> would have already been published and we would be well into working on new
>> work, probably much farther along than we are now.

> FX: falls over laughing.

> See son-of-1036 for details.

Son-of moves towards a strict standardization of existing practice, but
wasn't entirely (and even admits to that in the introduction).  It had
some of the same problems that our draft has, but to a much lesser degree.
See, for example, the proposed MIME-encoding of Newsgroups headers, which
regardless of one's opinion on the proposal as an idea, is not existing
practice.

(It also suffers from the problem of trying to be a repository of common
wisdom about implementation as well as a standard, something else that our
draft suffers from, except our draft is less coherent.)

But I'm inclined to think that more of the reason why Son-of was never
published was because it lacked enough people to push it through the
standards process.  This is hard to do, regardless of the merits of the
document.

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Russ Allbery (rra <at> stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Henry Spencer | 2 Sep 2002 01:06

Re: Final Last Last Last Last straw poll

On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Russ Allbery wrote:
> But I'm inclined to think that more of the reason why Son-of was never
> published was because it lacked enough people to push it through the
> standards process.

More precisely, because the author got burned out after writing it, and
never managed the next step of the standards process, which is "start
working group".  However, even if I had found the energy to continue it,
it would not have been just a matter of publishing son-of-1036; the
document *would* have changed during the standards process.  As, indeed,
it has. 

                                                          Henry Spencer
                                                       henry <at> spsystems.net
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Claus Färber | 2 Sep 2002 01:50
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Re: Backwards compatible

Erland Sommarskog <sommar-usefor <at> algonet.se> schrieb/wrote:
> Thus, it is precisely the same issue. The RFC2047 client cannot change
> which character set that is in use, so the best it can do is translate
> the codes into raw bytes, and let the user handle it. OK, it could use
> fallback characters as well, but that's a much worse solution, because
> the agent does not really know which charset the user is using. It could
> check the locale, but the locale may disagree with reality.

So it's better if the user has to guess the charset, exit the
newsreader, change the charset of the terminal, restart the newsreader,
look for the newsgroup, search through all read articles to find the
posting she was unable to read to be finally able to read it -- on a
per-posting basis?

Better than having the user set a configuration option *once* (only if
the newsreader can't determine it automatically) and having the news-
reader handle the rest?

Remember, in a transition period from raw leagacy 8bit and RFC 2047 to
UTF-8, we *will* see all of these three encodings. Currently, the 8bit
charset can be set on a per-group basis, RFC 2047 is detected automati-
cally. With a mix of UTF-8 and 8bit, this is no longer true.

Newsreaders will have to be able to recognize and retranslate different
charsets to the terminal charset anyway... and most of them already do.

The only big difference between RFC 2047 and raw UTF-8 here is
that there is existing software that can handle RFC 2047 without user
intervention while UTF-8 will often require the user to manually guess
and set the charset until they can detect UTF-8 themselves.
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Claus Färber | 2 Sep 2002 02:06
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Re: Final Last Last Last Last straw poll

Ralph Babel <rbabel <at> babylon.pfm-mainz.de> schrieb/wrote:
> 4. [YES] The draft isn't ready yet, and will never be, but
>          I'm tired of all this, so let's move on; hopefully
>          the IETF will stop it.

Claus
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Clive D.W. Feather | 2 Sep 2002 10:38

Re: Moderator issues in usefor draft 8

John Stanley said:
>> If it's a mail message, then the moderator is required to convert it to a
>> valid news article. This may, of course, be against the moderator's
>> charter or policy.

Insert "if it isn't one already" at the end of the first sentence.

> What a hoot. EVERY article submitted to a moderated group goes to the
> moderator via email. How can it possibly be against the charter or
> moderation policy to convert that email into a news article?

I don't know how restrictive moderators' charters are. Would you rather I
said that all moderators *had* to change submitted articles in various
ways? I would expect them to be up in arms if I did.

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Clive D.W. Feather | 2 Sep 2002 10:39

Re: Moderator issues in usefor draft 8

Ralph Babel said:
> Charles Lindsey in response to John Stanley:
> 
>> Yes, you are always "positive" that everything you suggest
>> is "the consensus of this group", but the facts speak
>> otherwise. You have been complaining about that particular
>> wording for years now, but virtually NOBODY has supported
>> you.
>
> Another non sequitur, see
> <200208291030.MAA01801 <at> message-id.pfm-mainz.de>.
> 
> If no one is contradicting a suggestion somebody else
> has made, you interpret it as "no one is supporting
> it". If everybody is tired of complaining about your
> unilateral changes, it means "rough consensus".

Does anyone bother commenting on John Stanley's recurring objections any
more?

For the record, I do *NOT* support his contention.

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Clive D.W. Feather | 2 Sep 2002 10:41

Re: Duties of a moderator section outlaws PGPMoose

Charles Lindsey said:
[re reordering the Newsgroups header]
> Fortunately, someone DID answer the question this morning, which makes
> 2.75 people supporting the change (since I was already myself 0.75
> convinced - by the technical arguments, not by your ranting).

I am agnostic on whether the change should be made or not.

However, if we decide to allow people to reorder the Newsgroups header,
then there should be *EXPLICIT* wording that
- the order of the groups is not significant in any way;
- this header is a variant header.

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Clive D.W. Feather | 2 Sep 2002 10:44

Re: Final Last Last Last Last straw poll

Ralph Babel said:
> You're not afraid of a "final" straw poll, are you?
> 
> 1. [y/n] We've produced a great draft and have achieved
>          "rough consensus" besides, so let's move on!

Yes.

> 2. [y/n] We've produced a reasonable draft and have
>          achieved "rough consensus", so let's move on!

Yes.

> 6. [y/n] The draft isn't ready yet, and will never be, but
>          we might have a chance if we started from scratch.

No.

> 7. [y/n] The draft can still be fixed, but needs more work.
>          Yes, we're probably all tired of it, but that's
>          not a reason to call it "complete".

No.

> 8. [y/n] This should have been a Concordet ballot.

Yes.

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Clive D.W. Feather | 2 Sep 2002 10:45

Re: Duties of a moderator section outlaws PGPMoose

Forrest J. Cavalier III said:
> The IETF states that each "Proposed Standard specification
> ...has resolved known design choices."  [RFC2026 4.1.1]

What does "resolved" mean in this context?

> Unresolved design choices must be addressed. Any consensus to
> leave them unaddressed is irrelevant, even if the issue was
> raised after the internal last call or the "final" draft.

Um, which choices are being left unaddressed?

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