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Simon Lyall | 1 Nov 1998 02:46
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Re: Moderation Submission Addresses (was DRAFT - Newsgroups v0.3)

Brad Templeton <brad <at> templetons.com> writes:
> While it doesn't entirely distribute the problem, may I suggest a
> DNS solution?  This is to say that all moderated mail goes to:
> 
> 	submit.groupname <at> groupname.reversed.usenet-mod.org

The people at news-admin.org might be able to help with this. They already
delegate subdomains to hierarchy maintainers.

--

-- 
Simon J. Lyall.  |   Very  Busy  |   Mail: simon <at> darkmere.gen.nz
"To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | MT.
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John Stanley | 1 Nov 1998 05:42

Re: Message ID translation for fidonet <-> usenet gateways.


On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, bas wrote:

> > > Articles which respond to other articles will also have a References
> > > header. This lists all articles that lead up the present article. The
> > > most recent responded article last.
> > 
> > Last sentence no verb.
> 
> `responded' is a verb.

Not the way it was used in that sentence fragment.
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bas | 1 Nov 1998 14:17

Re: Message ID translation for fidonet <-> usenet gateways.


John Stanley <stanley <at> PEAK.ORG> wrote:
...
> > > > This lists all articles that lead up the present article. The
> > > > most recent responded article last.
> > > 
> > > Last sentence no verb.
> > 
> > `responded' is a verb.
> 
> Not the way it was used in that sentence fragment.

I suspect it would parse more easily if a conjunction were added
between `article' and `The' (obviously after removing the period);
my suggestion is `with'.  HTH.

--b.
--

-- 
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Claus André Färber | 1 Nov 1998 10:49
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Re: Moderation Submission Addresses (was DRAFT - Newsgroups v0.3)

Matt Curtin <cmcurtin <at> interhack.net> schrieb:
> I don't believe the central control problem is an issue for the named
> article application, since there's already a central body that
> approves FAQs.

There is not. Anyone can post FAQs without approval. The central body  
only moderates *.answers.

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Charles Lindsey | 2 Nov 1998 12:40
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Re: Moderation Submission Addresses (was DRAFT - Newsgroups v0.3)

In <86k91gl4fk.fsf <at> strangepork.interhack.net> Matt Curtin <cmcurtin <at> interhack.net> writes:

>Such a solution would also be useful for the Named Article problem of
>having URLs become obsoleted by a FAQ maintainer moving from one
>domain to another.  So named articles wouldn't ever have the
>maintainer's FQDN; it'd have the usenet-mod.org (or whatever) instead.

Indeed, it would doubtless be simpler to have some standard stuff after
the  <at>  in message-ids for FAQs that tries to use hte '$v=n' hack. Something
derived from the FAQ name (e.g. the archive name agreed with news.answers
if it was posted there). Such would LOOK more sensible that the FQDN of a
site that was obviously not the originating site.

HOWEVER, that is not the _real_problem_. The real problem is if the FAQ
maintainer's new site (or even the old one) does not permit the FAQ
maintainer to choose his own message-id, because of site policy. In that
case, the whole scheme falls to the ground (he cannot even insert the
'$v=m'). I think we just have to live with this (FAQ maintainers with this
problem will just have to find a different site to inject at).

>I don't believe the central control problem is an issue for the named
>article application, since there's already a central body that
>approves FAQs.

Well, "most" FAQs.

--

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Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Email:     chl <at> clw.cs.man.ac.uk  Web:   http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Voice/Fax: +44 161 437 4506      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
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Simon Lyall | 10 Nov 1998 03:20
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Usefor Status

Main Draft:   

Dan Ritter has been very sick for the last few weeks but he hopes
to be able to catch up on things over the next week or two. I guess this
means we will miss the deadline for FL. Due to Dan's Illness is is some
distance behind in the list. Could people who have specific changes that
have been suggested that they do not with him to miss please email them
(or the URLs) to him. Cc these to me also. This will speed up the process
or getting updates to the text ready.

Cancel-lock Draft.

I have recieved almost no additional feedback on this apart from an error
in the abstract. If people have comments on the actual text please so say
now otherwise I will fix this error, add a credits section and as soon as
I send it out again move onto the long overdue 3rd party scheme.

draft-ietf-usefor-posted-mailed-01.txt
draft-ietf-usefor-message-id-01.txt
draft-ietf-usefor-msg-id-alt-00.txt

Could the authors (and others) please post to the list their opinions on
the above drafts. From memory there has been little recent comment on them
and they (well one of the 2nd and 3rd) may be ready for the next stage.

Simon Lyall
Usefor Chairperson.

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Simon J. Lyall.  |   Very  Busy  |   Mail: simon <at> darkmere.gen.nz
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Clive D.W. Feather | 10 Nov 1998 20:40

Re: Supersedes/Replaces in our present draft

Charles Lindsey said:
> But it
> would be nice to have the "order of arrival" wording removed from the NNTP
> document. And it would help if people could point out specific newsreaders
> (if any) which would suffer.

In late 1996 Demon was running a proprietary news server that included a
feature known as "backfill", where articles were not numbered in order of
arrival. We had a *lot* of complaints from our customers who were missing
those articles that arrived after they had collected higher numbered
articles. I went to the IETF meeting at San Jose and raised this as an
issue. Other people said that their servers also did backfill, and they
also got complaints.

After some discussion the working group agreed to forbid backfill and I
volunteered to rewrite the relevant bits of the draft (the introduction to
numbering and the commands that walk a group).

This wording is in there because the WG consensus was that it was needed.
I'd be unhappy about proposals to change that without rediscussing the
problems.

--

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Clive D.W. Feather       | Work: <clive <at> linx.org>   | Tel: +44 1733 705000
Regulation Officer       |   or: <clive <at> demon.net>  |  or: +44 973 377646
London Internet Exchange | Home: <clive <at> davros.org> | Fax: +44 1733 353929
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Charles Lindsey | 11 Nov 1998 10:51
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Re: Supersedes/Replaces in our present draft

In <19981110194056.E15431 <at> demon.net> "Clive D.W. Feather" <clive <at> demon.net> writes:

>Charles Lindsey said:
>> But it
>> would be nice to have the "order of arrival" wording removed from the NNTP
>> document. And it would help if people could point out specific newsreaders
>> (if any) which would suffer.

That was on the nntp list, in case anybody is confused. There has been
some discussion there this last week.

>This wording is in there because the WG consensus was that it was needed.
>I'd be unhappy about proposals to change that without rediscussing the
>problems.

Yes, the upshot of those discussions seems to be that implementing
Replaces by re-using old message numbers is not a good idea.

Which brings us to another suggestion made by Clive on the nntp list, and
which should now be considered by this list. He proposes to modify the
Xref: header as follows:

Xref: servername comp.foo.bar:4321/1234

Where 4321 is the article number of the new version of the article, and
1234 is the article number of the article that has been replaced.
Newsreaders will spot that 1234 has already been read (according to their
.newsrc) and so will not bother to show 4321.

The bad news is that the article has to be downloaded to the newsreader
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Matt Curtin | 11 Nov 1998 14:17

Re: Usefor Status

Simon Lyall <simon <at> darkmere.gen.nz> writes:

> draft-ietf-usefor-posted-mailed-01.txt
> draft-ietf-usefor-message-id-01.txt
> 
> Could the authors (and others) please post to the list their
> opinions on the above drafts. From memory there has been little
> recent comment on them and they (well one of the 2nd and 3rd) may be
> ready for the next stage.

draft-ietf-usefor-posted-mailed-01.txt apparently has a number of
unresolved questions.  Dan Ritter's August IETF 42 notes raise a
number of questions, and I've included my thoughts.

 o Why do we ignore followups-to in mail messages?

Paying attention to Followups-To in mail would then require mail
clients to be able to do NNTP.  It might be very difficult to get
standalone mailers like Z-mail, Eudora, etc., to implement a news
interface, especially for cases where there's a Followup-Host
defined.

Probably better to force all mail clients to work as they do now,
rather than write a spec including a directive that almost no one will
follow.

 o We should add a requirement for handling Newsgroups header in mail 
   if Posted-To header is not present. 

I do not understand this statement.  If the message is posted and
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Thomas Gschwind | 11 Nov 1998 14:14
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Re: Supersedes/Replaces in our present draft

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Charles Lindsey wrote:

> Which brings us to another suggestion made by Clive on the nntp list, and
> which should now be considered by this list. He proposes to modify the
> Xref: header as follows:
> 
> Xref: servername comp.foo.bar:4321/1234
> [...]
> The bad news is that the article has to be downloaded to the newsreader
> (or at least its headers) before the decision not to take it is made. The
> good news is that newsreaders can be configured to show Replaced articles
> regardless if the user so desires.
The corresponding overview record is sufficient.

> Now the question is, if we introduce that feature into the Xref header,
> what existing stuff will break? Or, what is the Xref header actually used
> for? Avoiding showing a cross-posted article in more than one group for
> one, but are there other uses? Note that Xref is commonly included in the
> overview for just that purpose. So will showing both numbers break
> existing implementations - or, what are those numbers used ror anyway?

As far as I know, only to mark cross-posted articles as read in the
other groups.  In the worst case, some news readers will not be able to
do this.  (tin would not be affected by this change (ignores everything
after group:number up to the next whitespace), I do not know of other
news readers but I can check this if there is interest).

However, I think this feature could be implemented even without changing
the current format of the Xref header.  The Replaces header and the list
of all message ids in the current newsgroup is sufficient.
(Continue reading)

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