Lorenzo Vicisano | 2 Sep 2004 09:04
Picon
Favicon

60th IETF, RMT meeting minutes

Please find attached the minutes of the RMT meeting at the 60th
IETF in san Diego.

	thank you,
	Lorenzo Vicisano

RMT WG minutes IETF60 3 Aug 04

Many thanks to Mark Pullen for recording these minutes.

- Agenda

 * bashing
 * status update
 * RMT BB outside RMT (Mike Luby)
 * New "simple" FEC ID (Mike Luby)

- Agenda modifications

Added an item proposed by Mark Pullen: use this forum to poll for
interest in overlay multicast techniques with the goal of possibly
forming a WG.

- WG Status (Lorenzo Vicisano)

  - past 6 months two new RFC (Compact FEC RFC3695, WEBRC RFC3738)
  - due soon: NORM BB, NORM PI, FLUTE
  - remaining drafts TFMCC, PGMCC soon to go in WG last call. Need to
    discuss this on the list and move forward.
  - Still need to evaluate when/how to go for Proposed Standard.
(Continue reading)

Lorenzo Vicisano | 2 Sep 2004 17:27
Picon
Favicon

Re: 60th IETF, RMT meeting minutes

Please use this new version of the minutes instead of the one
I originally sent.

	thank you,
	Lorenzo Vicisano

On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 12:04:48AM -0700, Lorenzo Vicisano wrote:
> Please find attached the minutes of the RMT meeting at the 60th
> IETF in san Diego.
> 
> 	thank you,
> 	Lorenzo Vicisano

RMT WG minutes IETF60 3 Aug 04

Many thanks to Mark Pullen for recording these minutes.

- Agenda

 * bashing
 * status update
 * RMT BB outside RMT (Mike Luby)
 * New "simple" FEC ID (Mike Luby)

- Agenda modifications

Added an item proposed by Mark Pullen: use this forum to poll for
interest in overlay multicast techniques with the goal of possibly
forming a WG.

(Continue reading)

Sami Peltotalo | 6 Sep 2004 13:19
Picon
Picon

draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Hi all,

>From meeting minutes:

  - the other pending draft in this area will be asked to
    restructure/simplify: it was proposed to re-edit the existing
    FEC-ID specs in order to structure the documents in a more readable
    way. A starting point would be to define only one FEC-ID per document.

I suppose this concerns our I-D: Simple XOR, Reed-Solomon, and Parity Check
Matrix-based FEC
Schemes.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-
rs-00.txt

So if there is need to restructure the I-D, and there should be only one
FEC-ID per document, we could divide the I-D into three I-Ds. The split
would be quite natural. All the three FEC schemes would have their own I-Ds.
How does this sound?

Cheers, Sami Peltotalo
Rod.Walsh | 6 Sep 2004 13:38
Picon

RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Sounds good.

Might I suggest the following?..
Send to RMT "Thanks for the suggestion in the San Diego minutes to separate our I-D into 3 I-Ds (one per
FEC-ID). This would make the content more readable so we will do this as an update. If anyone has any other
suggestions to make the content more readable (as suggested in the minutes) please send specific
comments ASAP as it would help us to incorporate those quickly and then spend time on substantial issues
for preparing these codes for RFC publication."

(You may be able to construct something a little less aggressive than my text :)

Cheers, Rod.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Sami Peltotalo [mailto:sami.peltotalo <at> tut.fi]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:19 PM
To: Rmt
Subject: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Hi all,

>From meeting minutes:

  - the other pending draft in this area will be asked to
    restructure/simplify: it was proposed to re-edit the existing
    FEC-ID specs in order to structure the documents in a more readable
    way. A starting point would be to define only one FEC-ID per document.

I suppose this concerns our I-D: Simple XOR, Reed-Solomon, and Parity Check
Matrix-based FEC
(Continue reading)

Rod.Walsh | 6 Sep 2004 14:42
Picon

RE: RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Once Again my brain leaked out prematurely, so to reiterate:

Sounds like a good idea for one I-D per FEC-ID for readability. Since I have heard a few weak-signals that
there was more discussed about R-S in San Diego it would be good for any issues about current FEC I-Ds to be
raised ASAP so they can mature fast.

I've been through the R-S/XOR/PCM I-D and think it's in pretty good shape (c.f. other FEC code RFCs/I-Ds),
and readability (even for a FEC-pleb like me) is good. Thus, I have understood the lack of RMT discussion to
be a mark of lack of major problems, but the San Diego minutes mention "more readable structure" as "a
starting point". To be frank "a starting point" is a lame proposal for any serious work in the IETF - were
there any substantial comments about the I-D or not?

BTW: Sami can you say what, if any, parts of it have been implemented and if there has been any IOP?

Cheers, Rod.

-----Original Message-----
From: rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext
Rod.Walsh <at> nokia.com
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 2:39 PM
To: sami.peltotalo <at> tut.fi; rmt <at> ietf.org
Subject: [Rmt] RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Sounds good.

Might I suggest the following?..
Send to RMT "Thanks for the suggestion in the San Diego minutes to separate our I-D into 3 I-Ds (one per
FEC-ID). This would make the content more readable so we will do this as an update. If anyone has any other
suggestions to make the content more readable (as suggested in the minutes) please send specific
comments ASAP as it would help us to incorporate those quickly and then spend time on substantial issues
(Continue reading)

Sami Peltotalo | 6 Sep 2004 15:24
Picon
Picon

RE: RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Hi,

An open source implementation of Simple XOR and Reed-Solomon library is
available at:
http://www.atm.tut.fi/mad

An open source implementation of LDPC/LDGM library (PCM codes) is available
at:
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/roca/mcl/. MCL includes also
Reed-Solomon implementation.

These libraries can be used with ALC/FLUTE, and some successful IOP test has
been done with Reed-Solomon (with FEC scheme 129/0).

Cheers, Sami

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rod.Walsh <at> nokia.com [mailto:Rod.Walsh <at> nokia.com]
> Sent: 6. syyskuuta 2004 15:42
> To: rmt <at> ietf.org
> Cc: sami.peltotalo <at> tut.fi
> Subject: RE: [Rmt] RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt
>
>
> Once Again my brain leaked out prematurely, so to reiterate:
>
> Sounds like a good idea for one I-D per FEC-ID for readability.
> Since I have heard a few weak-signals that there was more
> discussed about R-S in San Diego it would be good for any issues
> about current FEC I-Ds to be raised ASAP so they can mature fast.
(Continue reading)

Rod.Walsh | 6 Sep 2004 18:55
Picon

RE: RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Thanks Sami

That sounds pretty mature for a 00 draft!

Can you summarise what next steps the authors aim to take to advance these I-Ds, to make it easier to identify
if there are any issues not yet on the todo list? (I guess in preparation for IETF#61/Washington)

Cheers, Rod.

-----Original Message-----
From: rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext
Sami Peltotalo
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:25 PM
To: rmt <at> ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Rmt] RE: draft-peltotalo-rmt-bb-fec-supp-xor-pcm-rs-00.txt

Hi,

An open source implementation of Simple XOR and Reed-Solomon library is
available at:
http://www.atm.tut.fi/mad

An open source implementation of LDPC/LDGM library (PCM codes) is available
at:
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/roca/mcl/. MCL includes also
Reed-Solomon implementation.

These libraries can be used with ALC/FLUTE, and some successful IOP test has
been done with Reed-Solomon (with FEC scheme 129/0).

(Continue reading)

Rod.Walsh | 6 Sep 2004 19:02
Picon

draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt

Hi All

Whilst we're breaking the RMT silence, I would like to kindly ask if there are any views and opinions on
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt ?

I will be doing an 01 update this in time for Washington and there is some co-dependency with 3GPP work to be
finalised this year, so it's best to offer an opinion early in the off chance that this gets final fast.

Since Sami and I are co-authors, I guess an exchange between just us wouldn't generate to much new :)

Cheers, Rod.
Michael Luby | 7 Sep 2004 07:35
Favicon

RE: draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt

Rod et al,
I just quickly skimmed this draft, and I was wondering why the FEC Encoding
ID (and FEC Instance ID, for under-specifed FEC Encoding ID) are considered
optional parameters to be passed in the SDP session.  It seems like at the
time when the receiver gets the SDP description of the session the receiver
would have to know whether or not they support the FEC used in the session
(even if it is no-code) to see if they can even join the session and
understand what is going on, and thus it would seem like transporting the
FEC Encoding ID (and FEC Instance ID, for under-specified FEC Encoidng ID)
would be mandatory.  I didn't see any discussion of this anywhere in the
draft about the FEC Encoding ID except for the one statement in the intro
that it is optional, so it is hard to figure out what the intent is here.
Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:rmt-bounces <at> ietf.org]On Behalf Of
> Rod.Walsh <at> nokia.com
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 10:02 AM
> To: rmt <at> ietf.org
> Subject: [Rmt] draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt
>
>
> Hi All
>
> Whilst we're breaking the RMT silence, I would like to kindly ask
> if there are any views and opinions on
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt ?
>
> I will be doing an 01 update this in time for Washington and
> there is some co-dependency with 3GPP work to be finalised this
(Continue reading)

Rod.Walsh | 7 Sep 2004 08:27
Picon

RE: draft-mehta-rmt-flute-sdp-00.txt

Thanks Mike,

Good question!

Certainly better discussion and explanation is needed in the draft for 01.

These FEC parameters (of flute-sdp) are for capabilities description for the session. (Note, any
"FDT-like" fuller description of files in the session could give the FEC parameters per file). FLUTE's
FDT syntax (and codepoint header field usage) allows complete specification of these FEC parameters
in-band with FLUTE (per file). Thus machine configuration can be performed using FLUTE alone.

There are 5 main reasons that the FEC Encoding and instance IDs are optional capabilities descriptions:

1. It is not always necessary to explicitly describe the FEC capabilities in advance of the session - e.g.
for simple (and short) sessions it can be more elegant to discover this from the session (FDT) itself (even
when some mechanism for machine-readable session parameters, such as IP addresses and ports, is wanted
in advance)

2. There may be some other out-of-band discovery of FEC capability requirements (e.g. well
known-FEC/standardised capabilities for a certain application, verbal agreement between a group,
etc.) that provides the FEC capability information. We do not want to prevent this, and in this case
repeating the information in SDP would be unnecessary and wasteful (and probably result in
implementations not following the flute-sdp specification)

3. FLUTE defaults to null-fec and support for this is mandatory for FLUTE anyway so it is a given (capability
requirement) which does not need to be described by the SDP. In cases where only null-fec is required,
there is no use in specifying any FEC Enc(+Inst) IDs in the SDP (though it is allowed).

4. In cases where a FLUTE session description (SDP file) is not defined once for all time, it is possible that
the FEC usage is not known in advance and the FEC capabilities would only be added to the SDP in a later
(Continue reading)


Gmane