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Liu, Hong | 1 Oct 2002 16:14
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(unknown)

Hi, all,

Just want to let you know that the EPP over SOAP draft is now in the IETF
I-D archive:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-liu-epp-soap-00.txt

Cheers,

--Hong
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Liu, Hong | 8 Oct 2002 22:56
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Definition of "External" Host

Scott,

I have a question for clarification regarding the definition of "external"
host in the 2nd paragraph of Section 1.1 in
draft-ietf-provreg-epp-host-05.txt. Does it mean that a host object is
external to the current TLD only if the host name belongs to another TLD?
There are other cases that a host can also be external under the same TLD
but belongs to different 3rd level delegations. Thanks!

--Hong
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Hollenbeck, Scott | 9 Oct 2002 01:58
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

> I have a question for clarification regarding the definition 
> of "external"
> host in the 2nd paragraph of Section 1.1 in
> draft-ietf-provreg-epp-host-05.txt. Does it mean that a host object is
> external to the current TLD only if the host name belongs to 
> another TLD?
> There are other cases that a host can also be external under 
> the same TLD
> but belongs to different 3rd level delegations. Thanks!

I think the definition in section 1.1 is pretty clear: if there is no
superordinate domain name (a domain name higher up in the hierarchy)
registered in the repository, the host is considered an external host.  What
matters is where the management authority for the host's registered domain
lies:

"Such hosts are
described as "external" hosts in this specification since the
management authority for these hosts is external to the repository in
which the host is being used for delegation purposes."

-Scott-
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Liu, Hong | 9 Oct 2002 04:29
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

Scott,

The sentence you quoted seems OK if the terms "management authority" and
"repository" are precisely defined. It is not a problem if the repository is
the whole TLD and the management authority is the TLD registry operator.
However, it is getting complicated when delegation of name spaces occurs
under the same TLD in 3rd level and up.

Maybe an example will help explain my point. Suppose we have a TLD .tld with
two 3rd level delegations del1.tld and del2.tld. So there are three disjoint
name spaces under .tld: del1.tld, del2.tld and anything else under .tld.
These three name spaces have different registration policies. They may also
share some common registration policies.

If I understand correctly, .tld, .del1.tld, and .del2.tld are considered as
three separate "repositories". If not, please ignore the rest of the
message.

Now suppose registry operator A is responsible for .tld and .del1.tld, and
registry operator B is responsible for .del2.tld. So A is the management
authority for .tld and del1.tld, while B is the management authority for
del2.tld. 

Let's say three domains have been created in the three repositories,
respectively: abc.tld, def.del1.tld, ghi.del2.tld. Suppose def.del1.tld
wants to use hosts ns.abc.tld and ns.ghi.del2.tld as its nameservers. The
questions are:

(1) Is ns.abc.tld an external host of def.del1.tld? 
The answer seems to be "yes" since .tld and .del1.tld are two different
(Continue reading)

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Hollenbeck, Scott | 9 Oct 2002 13:29
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

> The sentence you quoted seems OK if the terms "management 
> authority" and
> "repository" are precisely defined. It is not a problem if 
> the repository is
> the whole TLD and the management authority is the TLD 
> registry operator.
> However, it is getting complicated when delegation of name 
> spaces occurs
> under the same TLD in 3rd level and up.
> 
> Maybe an example will help explain my point. Suppose we have 
> a TLD .tld with
> two 3rd level delegations del1.tld and del2.tld. So there are 
> three disjoint
> name spaces under .tld: del1.tld, del2.tld and anything else 
> under .tld.
> These three name spaces have different registration policies. 
> They may also
> share some common registration policies.
> 
> If I understand correctly, .tld, .del1.tld, and .del2.tld are 
> considered as
> three separate "repositories". If not, please ignore the rest of the
> message.

My contention is that they are all under the same ultimate management
authority and part of the same repository because they are all part of the
same TLD branch.

Think of it this way: should I or should I not be publishing glue records
(Continue reading)

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Jim Fleming | 9 Oct 2002 15:07
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Re: Definition of "External" Host

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck <at> verisign.com>
To: "'Liu, Hong'" <Hong.Liu <at> neustar.biz>; <ietf-provreg <at> cafax.se>
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:29 AM
Subject: RE: Definition of "External" Host

> > The sentence you quoted seems OK if the terms "management 
> > authority" and
> > "repository" are precisely defined. It is not a problem if 
> > the repository is
> > the whole TLD and the management authority is the TLD 
> > registry operator.
> > However, it is getting complicated when delegation of name 
> > spaces occurs
> > under the same TLD in 3rd level and up.
> > 
> > Maybe an example will help explain my point. Suppose we have 
> > a TLD .tld with
> > two 3rd level delegations del1.tld and del2.tld. So there are 
> > three disjoint
> > name spaces under .tld: del1.tld, del2.tld and anything else 
> > under .tld.
> > These three name spaces have different registration policies. 
> > They may also
> > share some common registration policies.
> > 
> > If I understand correctly, .tld, .del1.tld, and .del2.tld are 
> > considered as
> > three separate "repositories". If not, please ignore the rest of the
> > message.
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Liu, Hong | 10 Oct 2002 00:28
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

Scott,

Please see my comments below enclosed by <HL/>.

--Hong

-----Original Message-----
From: Hollenbeck, Scott [mailto:shollenbeck <at> verisign.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:29 AM
To: 'Liu, Hong'; 'ietf-provreg <at> cafax.se'
Subject: RE: Definition of "External" Host

> 
> Maybe an example will help explain my point. Suppose we have 
> a TLD .tld with
> two 3rd level delegations del1.tld and del2.tld. So there are 
> three disjoint
> name spaces under .tld: del1.tld, del2.tld and anything else 
> under .tld.
> These three name spaces have different registration policies. 
> They may also
> share some common registration policies.
> 
> If I understand correctly, .tld, .del1.tld, and .del2.tld are 
> considered as
> three separate "repositories". If not, please ignore the rest of the
> message.

My contention is that they are all under the same ultimate management
authority and part of the same repository because they are all part of the
(Continue reading)

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Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine | 10 Oct 2002 02:48
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Re: Definition of "External" Host

Scott,

It appears to me that there is some confusion concerning the following:

	1. the existance distinct policies scoped to the presence
	   (or absence) of infix dots, viz:
	  	*.a.z	policy "az",
	   	*.b.z	policy "bz",
	   	*.z	policy " z",

	2. the delegation of authoritative publication requirements,
	    viz:
	    	existence of glue records for nameservers (aka "hosts"),

	3. distinct instances of EPP servers.

In the context of the channel capacity of a single BEEP session I discussed
the possibility of a single TCP connection servicing the command/response
exchanges of two EPP endpoints conducting transactions against distinct
registries. This was in an exchange with Sheer El-Showk, back in August of
'01. That is what caught my limited attention in this exchange -- operators
with multiple policies and possibly using some mechanism other than distinct
endpoints to distinguish between policy scopes.

Comments:

New.Net marketed infix dots without delegation, and some other operators
may similarly market infix w/o delegation. Utility arguements for infix
dots w/o delegation are outside of our scope. This is fortunate for me,
as I can't think of any off-hand.
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Hollenbeck, Scott | 10 Oct 2002 03:54
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

I still do not understand what you do not understand.  In the specialized
case of a host being a name server, the host is either registered in a
repository that is authoritative for the IP address association with that
host or it isn't.  If it isn't, we came up with the "external host" term to
note the distinction that requires special DNS processing for name server
hosts.

host.2ld.tld is internal to the 2ld.tld repository.  It is external to any
other repository, including those that might exist under 2ld.tld, such as
3ld.2ld.tld, for reasons including some of those you described.  I'm not
sure where my earlier responses suggest otherwise, but they way you
described collapsing DBs and zones suggests that you've interpreted
something I said in a manner that I didn't intend.

This has nothing to do with registration policies, business practices, or
whatever.  It is ultimately related to the DNS and the zone file in which a
glue record for the name server should properly be published.

So, I think we're talking about the same thing.  Could you get to the point
of whatever it is you have an issue with?  If you don't like the way these
special-case hosts are described in the current document, please suggest
alternative text to describe the concept.

By the way, none of this was introduced in EPP-07.  It's been this way for
several revisions, including the one that passed WG last call.

-Scott-
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Liu, Hong | 10 Oct 2002 07:53
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RE: Definition of "External" Host

Scott,

The text I would like to propose to change is in
draft-ietf-provreg-epp-domain-05.txt, section 1.1, second paragraph, last
sentence: 
change 
"Such hosts are described as "external" hosts in this specification since
the management authority for these hosts is external to the repository in
which the host is being used for delegation purposes."
to
"Such hosts are described as "external" hosts in this specification since
the name of such host does not belong to the name space of the repository in
which the host is being used for delegation purposes."

I would also like to add some text in section 1.1 for the case where a host
object is used as a nameserver for a domain, but it is neither an external
host nor a subordiate host of the domain. That is, a host object that is
internal to the repository but external to the domain where it is being used
for delegation purpose. For example, ns1.abc.tld is a subordinate host of
domain abc.tld, and it is being used as a nameserver for domain def.tld. EPP
seems to allow this scenario, but it is not explicitly covered in section
1.1. The suggested text can be the following:

"Whether a host is external or internal is with respect to the repository in
which the host is being used for delegation purposes. Whether an internal
host is subordinate or non-subordinate is with respect to a domain within
the respository. For example, host ns1.abc.tld is a subordinate host of
domain abc.tld, but is a non-subordinate host of domain def.tld. ns1.abc.tld
can be used as a nameserver for def.tld. In this case, ns1.abc.tld MUST be
treated as an internal host, subject to the rules governing the operations
(Continue reading)

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Gmane