Bandar Al-Turaif | 6 Nov 04:54 2006
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MRIB

I am implementing PIM-SM and was looking for information about MRIB and how it is configured and built.

 

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Bandar Al-Turaif
bturaif <at> gmail.com

 

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Prashant Jhingran | 9 Nov 12:21 2006

FW: Multicast diagnostic stuff

Good stuff for diagnosing a network!

Regards,
Prashant Jhingran
Huawei Technologies
Mobile:+91-9448927814

============================================
"Sing, dance, serve, meditate and celebrate" 
- Sri Sri Ravi Shankar      www.artofliving.org
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: bdr [mailto:bdr <at> umich.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 6:23 PM
To: wg-multicast
Subject: Re: Multicast stuff

I don't know whether this stuff is of any interest to the
working group,
but I ported some multicast apps from linux to OS X and then
to Windows
to permit folks at the University Hospital & Medical school
to do some
multicast diagnostic stuff from their Windows platforms.  If
it's of any
use help yourself!

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bdr/et/mcast-general.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bdr/et/mcast-windows.html
Bandar Al Turaif | 10 Nov 02:21 2006
Picon

MRIB and multiple RP's

Hi,

It is me again. I am a P.h.D candidate at SMU and working with Dr. Suku Nair on IPTV project using PIM-SM.
We are exploring the possibility of having multiple RPs for a single group. As you know the RP has no knowledge about the exact structure of the tree.
We need for the RP to know the tree structure to calculate the tree cost.

Here is where my question comes, Is it possible for the RP to know the path and cost to all DR's and then use that to find its tree cost? and if so, is this path picked different for Unicast or Multicast since we know that PIM uses RPF to set up the path to the RP?

Its all related to the MRIB and how it chooses the path and I really did not find any information for that.

Thank you kindly for your assistance.

--
With my best regards

Bandar Al-Turaif

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Bandar Al-Turaif | 12 Nov 03:48 2006
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RE: MRIB and multiple RP's

I know that the RP at it current state does not know any details about DR’s. My question is, is it possible to modify PIM-SM and make it learn.

Our research is about relocating the RP depending on the shared tree cost, so it is very important for us to know the total cost of tree (link cost metric, or delay metric).

 

With my best regards.

 

Bandar Al-Turaif

From: Nanda Kishore Salem [mailto:nandas <at> citrix.com]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:09 AM
To: Bandar Al Turaif; pim <at> ietf.org
Subject: RE: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's

 

Hi Bandar,

 

            You must be looking for anycast RP. There are many ways how one group can have

multiple RP’s like

1.       anycast rp with msdp

2.       anycast rp without msdp

3.       scoped multicast addressing

 

There is no way for Rp to know any details about DR’s.

 

Regards,

Nanda Kishore

 

 

From: Bandar Al Turaif [mailto:bturaif <at> gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:51 AM
To: pim <at> ietf.org
Subject: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's

 

Hi,

It is me again. I am a P.h.D candidate at SMU and working with Dr. Suku Nair on IPTV project using PIM-SM.
We are exploring the possibility of having multiple RPs for a single group. As you know the RP has no knowledge about the exact structure of the tree.
We need for the RP to know the tree structure to calculate the tree cost.

Here is where my question comes, Is it possible for the RP to know the path and cost to all DR's and then use that to find its tree cost? and if so, is this path picked different for Unicast or Multicast since we know that PIM uses RPF to set up the path to the RP?

Its all related to the MRIB and how it chooses the path and I really did not find any information for that.

Thank you kindly for your assistance.

--
With my best regards

Bandar Al-Turaif

_______________________________________________
pim mailing list
pim <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pim
John Zwiebel | 13 Nov 18:55 2006
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Re: MRIB and multiple RP's


On Nov 11, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Bandar Al-Turaif wrote:

I know that the RP at it current state does not know any details about DR’s. My question is, is it possible to modify PIM-SM and make it learn.

Our research is about relocating the RP depending on the shared tree cost, so it is very important for us to know the total cost of tree (link cost metric, or delay metric).

 

With my best regards.

 

Bandar Al-Turaif

2 cents:

Of course it is possible.  However you should consider that a bidir RP does not require a physical
system to be used, its just any arbitrary point in the network.  This is both good and bad for what you
want.  Good, because it makes RP relocation simple: there's no need to physically reconfigure a router.
Bad because there's no central place to collect the information you are interested in.

Of course, you are really interested in just Sparse-mode and not bidir.  IMHO what you want is
a "two-stage" effort.  The source and/or receiver DR registers with a "RP-allocation server" (ie something that
does the calculation to determine the best location of the RP) and then a redistribution of RP
information for the specific multicast group.  (ie a /32)

FWIW, the bootstrap router protocol could quickly redistribute the /32 RP map within an enterprise.
However, doing this across PIM domains would be problematic.

So, you have a potentially good idea, but it depends on the continued deployment of sparse-mode
(ie some, like me, feel sparse-mode is no longer useful and should be replaced by SSM procedures)
and you need to define a protocol that is going to be rather complex, especially if it is used interdomain.

At this point, I do not feel you'll get any vendor to implement it.  Just an opinion.
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David McWalter | 13 Nov 20:59 2006

FW: MRIB and multiple RP's

Hi Bander.
 
John is correct that this would be hard to do using PIM-SM protocol flows.
 
However, it may be that your research doesn't require protocol changes.  Once forwarding state is set up, it may be possible for you to look at MRIB entries using the MIBs or some other means, and use this to trace all DRs and add up the link weights in the RPT.  Depending on what access you have, this may solve some inter-domain issues also.
 
So you might be able to tackle this optimization problem within the management plane, without touching the PIM-SM flows in the control plane.
 
David McW.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: John Zwiebel [mailto:jzwiebel <at> cisco.com]
Sent: 13 November 2006 09:55
To: Bandar Al-Turaif
Cc: pim <at> ietf.org; 'Nanda Kishore Salem'
Subject: Re: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's


On Nov 11, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Bandar Al-Turaif wrote:

I know that the RP at it current state does not know any details about DR’s. My question is, is it possible to modify PIM-SM and make it learn.

Our research is about relocating the RP depending on the shared tree cost, so it is very important for us to know the total cost of tree (link cost metric, or delay metric).

With my best regards.

Bandar Al-Turaif

2 cents:

Of course it is possible.  However you should consider that a bidir RP does not require a physical
system to be used, its just any arbitrary point in the network.  This is both good and bad for what you
want.  Good, because it makes RP relocation simple: there's no need to physically reconfigure a router.
Bad because there's no central place to collect the information you are interested in.

Of course, you are really interested in just Sparse-mode and not bidir.  IMHO what you want is
a "two-stage" effort.  The source and/or receiver DR registers with a "RP-allocation server" (ie something that
does the calculation to determine the best location of the RP) and then a redistribution of RP
information for the specific multicast group.  (ie a /32)

FWIW, the bootstrap router protocol could quickly redistribute the /32 RP map within an enterprise.
However, doing this across PIM domains would be problematic.

So, you have a potentially good idea, but it depends on the continued deployment of sparse-mode
(ie some, like me, feel sparse-mode is no longer useful and should be replaced by SSM procedures)
and you need to define a protocol that is going to be rather complex, especially if it is used interdomain.

At this point, I do not feel you'll get any vendor to implement it.  Just an opinion.
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Stig Venaas | 13 Nov 21:43 2006
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Re: MRIB and multiple RP's

John Zwiebel wrote:
> 
> On Nov 11, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Bandar Al-Turaif wrote:
> 
>> I know that the RP at it current state does not know any details about 
>> DR’s. My question is, is it possible to modify PIM-SM and make it learn.
>>
>> Our research is about relocating the RP depending on the shared tree 
>> cost, so it is very important for us to know the total cost of tree 
>> (link cost metric, or delay metric).
>>
>>  
>>
>> With my best regards.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Bandar Al-Turaif
>>
> 2 cents:
> 
> Of course it is possible.  However you should consider that a bidir RP 
> does not require a physical
> system to be used, its just any arbitrary point in the network.  This is 
> both good and bad for what you
> want.  Good, because it makes RP relocation simple: there's no need to 
> physically reconfigure a router.
> Bad because there's no central place to collect the information you are 
> interested in.
> 
> Of course, you are really interested in just Sparse-mode and not bidir.

IMHO this exercise is much more interesting for bidir. For SM you would
usually switch to SPTs anyway so that RP location does not matter much.

> IMHO what you want is
> a "two-stage" effort.  The source and/or receiver DR registers with a 
> "RP-allocation server" (ie something that
> does the calculation to determine the best location of the RP) and then 
> a redistribution of RP
> information for the specific multicast group.  (ie a /32)

Yes, sounds reasonable.
> 
> FWIW, the bootstrap router protocol could quickly redistribute the /32 
> RP map within an enterprise.

Would be kind of interesting to use BSR and assign the different C-RPs
weights according to the shared tree cost for each of them for each
group. I'm not sure you want to move the RP when someone new joins the
group though. I mean, the optimum RP location might change when someone
new joins, but moving the RP and hence the shared tree, while data is
being forwarded is likely to cause problems. This might be ok if
forwarding is done on SPTs, but then why move the RP...

BTW, the RP should be able to determine the cost for the first hop
routers (source DRs), learning their unicast addresses from the
PIM registers. If all receivers also are sources...

Stig

> However, doing this across PIM domains would be problematic.
> 
> So, you have a potentially good idea, but it depends on the continued 
> deployment of sparse-mode
> (ie some, like me, feel sparse-mode is no longer useful and should be 
> replaced by SSM procedures)
> and you need to define a protocol that is going to be rather complex, 
> especially if it is used interdomain.
> 
> At this point, I do not feel you'll get any vendor to implement it.  
> Just an opinion.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pim mailing list
> pim <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pim
John Zwiebel | 13 Nov 21:56 2006
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Re: MRIB and multiple RP's


On Nov 13, 2006, at 12:43 PM, Stig Venaas wrote:

>
> BTW, the RP should be able to determine the cost for the first hop
> routers (source DRs), learning their unicast addresses from the
> PIM registers. If all receivers also are sources...

Except that now you've reverted back to Sparse-mode -- which isn't  
"interesting".  :-)

For bidir, you'd need to be able to determine the source location via  
some
"other means" since there is nothing in PIM-bidir that would allow  
you to know
there are sources anywhere.
Nanda Kishore Salem | 10 Nov 07:09 2006

RE: MRIB and multiple RP's

Hi Bandar,

 

            You must be looking for anycast RP. There are many ways how one group can have

multiple RP’s like

1.       anycast rp with msdp

2.       anycast rp without msdp

3.       scoped multicast addressing

 

There is no way for Rp to know any details about DR’s.

 

Regards,

Nanda Kishore

 

 

From: Bandar Al Turaif [mailto:bturaif <at> gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:51 AM
To: pim <at> ietf.org
Subject: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's

 

Hi,

It is me again. I am a P.h.D candidate at SMU and working with Dr. Suku Nair on IPTV project using PIM-SM.
We are exploring the possibility of having multiple RPs for a single group. As you know the RP has no knowledge about the exact structure of the tree.
We need for the RP to know the tree structure to calculate the tree cost.

Here is where my question comes, Is it possible for the RP to know the path and cost to all DR's and then use that to find its tree cost? and if so, is this path picked different for Unicast or Multicast since we know that PIM uses RPF to set up the path to the RP?

Its all related to the MRIB and how it chooses the path and I really did not find any information for that.

Thank you kindly for your assistance.

--
With my best regards

Bandar Al-Turaif

_______________________________________________
pim mailing list
pim <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pim
Marc Simmons | 14 Nov 18:57 2006
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Picon

RE: MRIB and multiple RP's

How can you have anycast without MSDP? What will keep all of the RP's synchronised.
 
Regards
 
Marc Simmons

From: Nanda Kishore Salem [mailto:nandas <at> citrix.com]
Sent: 10 November 2006 06:09
To: Bandar Al Turaif; pim <at> ietf.org
Subject: RE: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's

Hi Bandar,

 

            You must be looking for anycast RP. There are many ways how one group can have

multiple RP’s like

1.       anycast rp with msdp

2.       anycast rp without msdp

3.       scoped multicast addressing

 

There is no way for Rp to know any details about DR’s.

 

Regards,

Nanda Kishore

 

 

From: Bandar Al Turaif [mailto:bturaif <at> gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:51 AM
To: pim <at> ietf.org
Subject: [pim] MRIB and multiple RP's

 

Hi,

It is me again. I am a P.h.D candidate at SMU and working with Dr. Suku Nair on IPTV project using PIM-SM.
We are exploring the possibility of having multiple RPs for a single group. As you know the RP has no knowledge about the exact structure of the tree.
We need for the RP to know the tree structure to calculate the tree cost.

Here is where my question comes, Is it possible for the RP to know the path and cost to all DR's and then use that to find its tree cost? and if so, is this path picked different for Unicast or Multicast since we know that PIM uses RPF to set up the path to the RP?

Its all related to the MRIB and how it chooses the path and I really did not find any information for that.

Thank you kindly for your assistance.

--
With my best regards

Bandar Al-Turaif


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