Mikael Abrahamsson | 1 Sep 2011 07:06
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Re: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Simon Perreault wrote:

> Mikael Abrahamsson wrote, on 08/27/2011 02:31 AM:
>> I support making it a MUST requirement, due to the fact that without it, it's
>> nearly impossible to handle the logging load.
>
> According to previous calculations, the logging load is not unmanageable.
> See <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg08801.html>.

There are markets where there is either already a requirement, or talk 
about putting into law a requirement to save such data for 3 years. When 
one is talking about many tens of gigabits/s of traffic we're talking 
really serious storage systems (hundreds of terabytes if not thousands 
of terabytes of storage).

Avoiding logging any kind of destination information is to be preferred, 
only logging the source port range being made available for the customer 
and requiring the party wanting information to supply time,IP address and 
port to track an individual user, makes the logging load go down by factor 
1000 or more in our calculations.

--

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike <at> swm.pp.se
Mikael Abrahamsson | 1 Sep 2011 07:11
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Re: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com wrote:

> Other advantages would be interesting, but I can't see any other reason 
> to keep logs on the long term besides heating a building with spinning 
> hard drives.

Well, I'd say being a good netizen and being able to do regular abuse 
tracking, means one often wants to save logs for months anyway. Creating a 
logging system to handle the rate of data being creating by flow export 
costs more to aquire than the CGN device itself when we looked into it.

A lot of ISPs do not log this today so they can't really do abuse tracking 
at all.

--

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike <at> swm.pp.se
Maglione Roberta | 1 Sep 2011 09:48
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Re: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

In my country the law requires to keep logs for 5 years and we are not allowed to log destination information
for privacy reasons.
Having the possibility to use port range would help reducing the amount of data we need to store.

Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson
Sent: giovedì 1 settembre 2011 7.07
To: Simon Perreault
Cc: behave <at> ietf.org
Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Simon Perreault wrote:

> Mikael Abrahamsson wrote, on 08/27/2011 02:31 AM:
>> I support making it a MUST requirement, due to the fact that without it, it's
>> nearly impossible to handle the logging load.
>
> According to previous calculations, the logging load is not unmanageable.
> See <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg08801.html>.

There are markets where there is either already a requirement, or talk
about putting into law a requirement to save such data for 3 years. When
one is talking about many tens of gigabits/s of traffic we're talking
really serious storage systems (hundreds of terabytes if not thousands
of terabytes of storage).

Avoiding logging any kind of destination information is to be preferred,
only logging the source port range being made available for the customer
(Continue reading)

mohamed.boucadair | 1 Sep 2011 15:45

Request to adopt draft-boucadair-behave-bittorrent-address-sharing as WG document

Dear all,

I would like to have a feedback from the WG whether there is an interest to adopt
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-bittorrent-address-sharing-00 as WG document.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Original Message-----
> From: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org 
> [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dan Wing
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 9:22 PM
> To: Behave WG
> Cc: behave-chairs <at> tools.ietf.org; 'Dave Thaler'
> Subject: [BEHAVE] BEHAVE presentations at IETF81
> 

> 
> * draft-boucadair-behave-bittorrent-address-sharing -- I 
> believe this was
> going to be published AD-sponsored, unless there is interest 
> in the working
> group on this document?  If folks want to look at it, and 
> decide if they
> could provide peer review, we might consider adopting this as 
> a WG document.
> Please let me know.
> 
(Continue reading)

Tina TSOU | 1 Sep 2011 18:54
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FW: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

 

 

From: Tina TSOU
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:24 PM
To: 'Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com'; simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca
Cc: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org
Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

 

Jean-Francois and Simon,

I think log and data retention is a normal requirement for CGN, and little data storage size is desired. The log capacity should not impact device performance.

 

 

Best Regards,

Tina TSOU

http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html

 

From: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:41 AM
To: simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca
Cc: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org
Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

 


>> The rationale here is that in many countries, law enforcement agencies mandate
>> to keep these logs for at least a year, sometimes even longer.
> Not disagreeing with you, but I fear that this rationale would go against RFC2804:
>
>   The IETF has decided not to consider requirements for wiretapping as
>   part of the process for creating and maintaining IETF standards.

>
> I feel like it would make a stronger rationale if we focus on other advantages
> of bulk port allocation...

Good point. The definition of wiretapping in RFC2804 is wide enough that logging
source ports is probably (barely) included in this context.

Other advantages would be interesting, but I can't see any other reason to keep
logs on the long term besides heating a building with spinning hard drives.


>> With the numbers you refered
>> to above (2.7 TB/day), this means nearly 1 Petabyte of storage per year *per CGN
>> device*.
> That with 1,000,000 bindings/sec, which is a lot. That's 15 IP addresses worth
> of external ports consumed per second. That's a really big NAT!

Of course, but even if logging is an order of magnitude smaller, this is only one
NAT box in a network presumably using several CGNs. CGN is, by definition,
a really big NAT. Logging without port ranges remains a non-trivial an operational problem.

/JF

<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From:</span><span> Tina
 TSOU <br>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:24 PM<br>To: 'Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com'; simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca<br>Cc: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt<p></p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Jean-Francois and Simon,<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I think log and data retention is a normal requirement for CGN, and little data storage size is desired. The log capacity should not impact device performance.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Best Regards,<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Tina TSOU<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From:</span><span> behave-bounces <at> ietf.org
 [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com<br>Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:41 AM<br>To: simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca<br>Cc: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt<p></p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><span>&gt;&gt; The rationale here is that in many countries, law enforcement agencies mandate</span><span><br>&gt;&gt; to keep these logs for at least a year, sometimes even longer.<br>&gt; Not disagreeing with you, but I fear that this rationale would go against RFC2804:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; &nbsp; The IETF has decided not to consider requirements for wiretapping as<br>&gt; &nbsp; part of the process for creating and maintaining IETF standards.</span>
<br><span>&gt;</span><span><br>&gt; I feel like it would make a stronger rationale if we focus on other advantages<br>&gt; of bulk port allocation...<br></span><br><span>Good point. The definition of wiretapping in RFC2804 is wide enough that logging</span>
<br><span>source ports is probably (barely) included in this context.
</span><br><br><span>Other advantages would be interesting, but I can't see any other reason to keep
</span><br><span>logs on the long term besides heating a building with spinning hard drives.
</span><br><br><span><br>&gt;&gt; With the numbers you refered<br>&gt;&gt; to above (2.7 TB/day), this means nearly 1 Petabyte of storage per year *per CGN<br>&gt;&gt; device*.<br>&gt; That with 1,000,000 bindings/sec, which is a lot. That's 15 IP addresses worth<br>&gt; of external ports consumed per second. That's a really big NAT!<br></span><br><span>Of course, but even if logging is an order of magnitude smaller, this is only one
</span><br><span>NAT box in a network presumably using several CGNs. CGN is, by definition,
</span><br><span>a really big NAT. Logging without port ranges remains a non-trivial an operational problem.
</span><br><br><span>/JF</span> <p></p></p>
</div>
</div>
Howard, Lee | 1 Sep 2011 14:04

Re: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

> -----Original Message-----
> From: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Simon
> Perreault
> Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com wrote, on 08/31/2011 01:36 PM:
> > The rationale here is that in many countries, law enforcement agencies mandate
> > to keep
> > these logs for at least a year, sometimes even longer.
>
> Not disagreeing with you, but I fear that this rationale would go against RFC2804:
>
>    The IETF has decided not to consider requirements for wiretapping as
>    part of the process for creating and maintaining IETF standards.

Wiretapping is not the same as logging.  But the rationales for rfc2804 would apply
in this case.

Response to abuse complaints would be pretty operational.  One form of abuse
complaint is the subpoena.  Without logs, there's no way to know who the
accused abuser is.

Lee

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Frank Brockners (fbrockne | 2 Sep 2011 18:37
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Re: My review of draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09

Dave,

 

thanks for your comments and detailed review and sorry for the delay in getting the draft updated. We just posted a new revision (draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-11), reflecting your comments. Please see additional comments inline...

 

From: behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Thaler
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:13 AM
To: draft-ietf-dime-nat-control <at> tools.ietf.org; dime-chairs <at> tools.ietf.org
Cc: David Harrington; behave <at> ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Subject: [BEHAVE] My review of draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09

 

My review of this draft is at

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.pdf

or (same content)

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.docx

 

High level questions:

1)      The model discussed in the draft appears to assume there’s only one NAT device in the domain.  In contrast, the models in the Behave WG allow for multiple.   What happens if there are multiple NAT-devices (for failover or load balancing or whatever else)?

…..FB: We clarified that DNCA applies to n:m scenarios, with n NAT-Controllers and m NAT-devices. Section 3.3 now discusses this:

 

3.3.  Deployment Scenarios For DNCA

 

   DNCA can be deployed in different ways.  DNCA supports deployments

   with "n" NAT-controllers and "m" NAT-devices, with n and m equal to

   or greater than 1.  For DNCA, the session representing a particular

   endpoint is atomic.  Any deployment MUST ensure that for every given

   endpoint only a single NAT-controller and only a single NAT-device

   are active at any point in time.  This is to ensure that NAT-devices

   controlled by multiple NAT-controllers do not receive conflicting

   control requests for a particular endpoint, or would be unclear which

   NAT-controller to send accounting information to.

 

 

2)      Security seems to be a MAY.   Why not a SHOULD or a MUST?   Using only a MAY warrants an explanation.

…FB: Agreed. And we refer to security as a SHOULD throughout the document.

 

3)      There’s no mention of DoS attack by filling up logs.   Is that a concern?

 

...FB: It could be a concern, if the logging infrastructure is not designed with potential DoS attacks in mind. We've updated the  security section to reflect this (see section 12):

 

   [..] Failing

   of any of the two DNCA Diameter peers to provide the required

   credentials should be subject to logging.  The corresponding logging

   infrastructure of the operator SHOULD be built in a way that it can

   mitigate potential denial of service attacks resulting from large

   amounts of logging events.  This could include proper dimensioning of

   the logging infrastructure combined with policing the maximum amount

   of logging events accepted by the logging system to a threshold which

   the system is known to be able to handle.

 

 

Rest is mostly editorial nits.

…FB: Thanks for catching all these nits. Really helpful (and hopefully we reflected all of them in revision -11)

 

I also reviewed it for consistency with RFC 4008 and for consistency with draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements, and I didn’t spot any inconsistencies other that in question 1 above.

 

Regards, Frank

 

 

-Dave

<div>

<div class="WordSection1">

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dave,<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>thanks for your comments and
detailed review and sorry for the delay in getting the draft updated. We just
posted a new revision (draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-11), reflecting your
comments. Please see additional comments inline...<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<div>

<div>

<div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From:</span><span>
behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Thaler<br>Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:13 AM<br>To: draft-ietf-dime-nat-control <at> tools.ietf.org;
dime-chairs <at> tools.ietf.org<br>Cc: David Harrington; behave <at> ietf.org; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>Subject: [BEHAVE] My review of draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09<p></p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">My review of this draft is at<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.pdf">http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.pdf</a><p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">or (same content)<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.docx">http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/dthaler/draft-ietf-dime-nat-control-09.docx</a><p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">High level questions:<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph">1)<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>The
model discussed in the draft appears to assume there&rsquo;s only one NAT
device in the domain. &nbsp;In contrast, the models in the Behave WG allow for
multiple.&nbsp;&nbsp; What happens if there are multiple NAT-devices (for
failover or load balancing or whatever else)?<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span>&hellip;..FB: We clarified that DNCA applies to n:m
scenarios, with n NAT-Controllers and m NAT-devices. Section 3.3 now discusses
this:<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>3.3.&nbsp; Deployment Scenarios For DNCA<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; DNCA can be deployed in different ways.&nbsp; DNCA
supports deployments<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; with "n" NAT-controllers and
"m" NAT-devices, with n and m equal to<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; or greater than 1.&nbsp; For DNCA, the session
representing a particular<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoint is atomic.&nbsp; Any deployment MUST
ensure that for every given<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; endpoint only a single NAT-controller and only a
single NAT-device<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; are active at any point in time.&nbsp; This is to
ensure that NAT-devices<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; controlled by multiple NAT-controllers do not
receive conflicting<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; control requests for a particular endpoint, or
would be unclear which<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; NAT-controller to send accounting information to.<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph">2)<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Security
seems to be a MAY.&nbsp;&nbsp; Why not a SHOULD or a MUST?&nbsp;&nbsp; Using
only a MAY warrants an explanation.<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span>&hellip;FB:
Agreed. And we refer to security as a SHOULD throughout the document.<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph">3)<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>There&rsquo;s
no mention of DoS attack by filling up logs.&nbsp;&nbsp; Is that a concern?<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>...FB: It could be a concern, if the logging infrastructure is
not designed with potential DoS attacks in mind. We've updated the &nbsp;security
section to reflect this (see section 12):<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; [..] Failing<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; of any of the
two DNCA Diameter peers to provide the required<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; credentials
should be subject to logging.&nbsp; The corresponding logging<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; infrastructure
of the operator SHOULD be built in a way that it can<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; mitigate
potential denial of service attacks resulting from large<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; amounts of logging
events.&nbsp; This could include proper dimensioning of<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; the logging
infrastructure combined with policing the maximum amount<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; of logging
events accepted by the logging system to a threshold which<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoPlainText"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp; the system is
known to be able to handle.<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">Rest is mostly editorial nits.<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>&hellip;FB: Thanks for catching
all these nits. Really helpful (and hopefully we reflected all of them in revision
-11)<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">I also reviewed it for consistency with RFC 4008 and for
consistency with draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements, and I didn&rsquo;t spot
any inconsistencies other that in question 1 above.<p></p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards, Frank<p></p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p>&nbsp;</p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><p>&nbsp;</p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal">-Dave<p></p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>
Simon Perreault | 5 Sep 2011 22:36
Picon
Favicon

NAT-MIB bis

Hello,

This was just posted:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perreault-opsawg-natmib-bis-00

There's been some work on MIBs in BEHAVE lately. There are a number of 
new things that require an update to RFC 4008:
- DS-Lite (shared internal address pools)
- CGNs (thresholds, alarms, statistics, etc.)
- NAT64
and RFC 4008 itself is in need of some polishing independent of those. 
That's why we started a NAT-MIB bis draft.

You can see in section 2 that most of the items are marked TO-DO. We 
will continue working on this draft. At this point we would like some 
early feedback on the worthiness of this effort. Will NAT vendors 
implement this? Do operators need this? Does this make technical sense? 
Text contribution is also very welcome.

As BEHAVE is shutting down, we would like to invite discussion on the 
OPSAWG mailing list. We would like this draft to be adopted by a working 
group eventually, and would appreciate guidance on this as well.

Thanks,
Simon
--

-- 
DTN made easy, lean, and smart --> http://postellation.viagenie.ca
NAT64/DNS64 open-source        --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
STUN/TURN server               --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
Joel jaeggli | 4 Sep 2011 18:15

Re: FW: Question on draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt

the way to have a log facility not impact device performance is to move
everything but generation off of the device itself. This is standard
operating procedure today.

The numbers referenced bellow are totally tractable, albiet you may not
like the scale of the infrastructure necessary to support it ~3TB a day
is under 300Mb/s

joel

On 9/1/11 09:54 , Tina TSOU wrote:
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Tina TSOU
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:24 PM
> *To:* 'Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com'; simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca
> *Cc:* behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [BEHAVE] Question on
> draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt
> 
>  
> 
> Jean-Francois and Simon,
> 
> I think log and data retention is a normal requirement for CGN, and
> little data storage size is desired. The log capacity should not impact
> device performance.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Tina TSOU
> 
> http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*behave-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:behave-bounces <at> ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jean-Francois.TremblayING <at> videotron.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:41 AM
> *To:* simon.perreault <at> viagenie.ca
> *Cc:* behave-bounces <at> ietf.org; behave <at> ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [BEHAVE] Question on
> draft-ietf-behave-lsn-requirements-03.txt
> 
>  
> 
> 
>>> The rationale here is that in many countries, law enforcement agencies
> mandate
>>> to keep these logs for at least a year, sometimes even longer.
>> Not disagreeing with you, but I fear that this rationale would go
> against RFC2804:
>>
>>   The IETF has decided not to consider requirements for wiretapping as
>>   part of the process for creating and maintaining IETF standards.
>>
>> I feel like it would make a stronger rationale if we focus on other
> advantages
>> of bulk port allocation...
> 
> Good point. The definition of wiretapping in RFC2804 is wide enough that
> logging
> source ports is probably (barely) included in this context.
> 
> Other advantages would be interesting, but I can't see any other reason
> to keep
> logs on the long term besides heating a building with spinning hard drives.
> 
> 
>>> With the numbers you refered
>>> to above (2.7 TB/day), this means nearly 1 Petabyte of storage per
> year *per CGN
>>> device*.
>> That with 1,000,000 bindings/sec, which is a lot. That's 15 IP
> addresses worth
>> of external ports consumed per second. That's a really big NAT!
> 
> Of course, but even if logging is an order of magnitude smaller, this is
> only one
> NAT box in a network presumably using several CGNs. CGN is, by definition,
> a really big NAT. Logging without port ranges remains a non-trivial an
> operational problem.
> 
> /JF
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Behave <at> ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave

Iljitsch van Beijnum | 6 Sep 2011 15:49
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Re: Request to adopt draft-boucadair-behave-bittorrent-address-sharing as WG document

On 1 sep 2011, at 15:45, <mohamed.boucadair <at> orange-ftgroup.com>
<mohamed.boucadair <at> orange-ftgroup.com> wrote:

> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-behave-bittorrent-address-sharing-00 

> Comments and suggestions are welcome.

Why did you use the address 193.51.145.206 as the shared address rather than an RFC 1918 address? This way
special case logic for address sharing in the application, if any, will probably remain unused. Also,
this address is in the same subnet as the other non-shared peers, which may trigger other special case logic.

Testing with both regular and private addresses would be best.

A lot of text is presented in narrow columns in long, page break spanning tables. Don't do this. I can't stand
to read it.

Considering the fact that the found issue (under one of two possible configuration settings two peers
sharing an address can't connect to a single other peer) is a pretty extreme corner case which doesn't even
preclude eventual successful downloading and the BitTorrent protocol (unless I missed something)
isn't published as an RFC, I don't think this work is in the right place here so it shouldn't be adopted as a WG
document and it shouldn't be published as an RFC. Even if the "belongs here" isn't found persuasive both
the strange test setup and the unfortunate formatting make this document too immature for WG adoption.

Gmane