Pyda Srisuresh | 1 Mar 15:15 2007
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Re: WGLC for behave-p2pstate-02 starts now


--- Cullen Jennings <fluffy <at> cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> On Feb 28, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Pyda Srisuresh wrote:
> 
> > Note, this is different from "Behave Compliant NAT". If you like, I
> > could add a line that BEHAVE complaint NAT devices are good  
> > examples of "P2P
> > friendly NAT" devices.
> 
> Help me understand the difference between the two? If this is an  
> effort to define P2P Friendly NATs to be the things that the WG  
> disagreed with you about when doing the existing drafts, I doubt that  
> represents WG consensus.
> 

[suresh] Cullen - I have no intent to do anything outside WG consensus in any
draft, including the p2p-state draft. And, I had not done this before.

The term "P2P-friendly NAT" is defined in p2p-state draft as follows.

   A P2P-friendly NAT is a NAT device that maintains the endpoint
   identity of a P2P host application when the P2P application
   initiates a session. P2P-friendly NAT devices permit traversal of
   P2P applications traffic across themselves. NAT devices employing
   Address-Independent Mapping are examples of P2P-friendly NAT
   devices.

As you can see the only requirement attributed to this term is
(Continue reading)

The IESG | 1 Mar 17:32 2007
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Last Call: draft-ietf-behave-tcp (NAT Behavioral Requirements for TCP) to BCP

The IESG has received a request from the Behavior Engineering for 
Hindrance Avoidance WG (behave) to consider the following document:

- 'NAT Behavioral Requirements for TCP '
   <draft-ietf-behave-tcp-05.txt> as a BCP

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf <at> ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-03-15. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg <at> ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-tcp-05.txt

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14296&rfc_flag=0

Saikat Guha | 1 Mar 19:21 2007
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Re: WGLC for behave-p2pstate-02 starts now

On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 06:15 -0800, Pyda Srisuresh wrote:
> As you can see the only requirement attributed to this term is
> Endpoint-Independent mapping. This draft is focused solely on NAT traversal for
> p2P applications. Whereas, RFC 4787 and TCP/ICMP Behave drafts are more
> holistic and have a total of 32 (14+9+9) requirements for BEHAVE compliance.
> For example, they each have mandatory timeout requirement that many NATs out
> there do not comply with yet.

Just made a quick pass through the document, three comments.

1) In the definition of P2P-Friendly, any particular reason why the
other BEHAVE requirements are left out? For example, a NAT that
instantly responds with a RST packet to any and all inbound-SYN packets
is _not_ P2P friendly even if it had endpoint independent mappings.
According to the current definition, it would be classified as P2P
friendly.

2) The document currently does not talk about keepalive packets. IMHO
keepalives should be in scope, particularly since datapath
authentication is (advocated in section 6.1). P2P developers must
perform both datapath auth and keepalives in NAT'ed environments.

3) The document defines Endpoint-Dependent mapping and filtering, as has
been pointed out to basically refer to *non*-Endpoint-Independent
mapping and filtering defined in BEHAVE documents. Instead of defining
new terms, suggest using negated versions of established terms.

2c
--

-- 
Saikat
(Continue reading)

Internet-Drafts | 1 Mar 21:50 2007
Picon

I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Behavior Engineering for Hindrance Avoidance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: NAT Behavioral Requirements for ICMP protocol
	Author(s)	: P. Srisuresh, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt
	Pages		: 24
	Date		: 2007-3-1
	
This document specifies the behavioral properties required of the 
   Network Address Translator (NAT) devices in conjunction with the
   ICMP protocol. The objective of this memo is to make NAT devices
   more predictable and compatible with diverse application protocols
   that traverse the devices. Companion documents provide behavioral
   recommendations specific to TCP, UDP and other protocols.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
i-d-announce-request <at> ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of 
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You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the 
username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then 
"get draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt".
(Continue reading)

Dan Wing | 2 Mar 02:20 2007
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poll: RE: protocol design techniques, draft-ford-behave-app

All is quiet -- this tells me you are too busy with draft submissions, you
don't care about this milestone, or you don't feel this draft meets the
milestone but don't want to say so.

I'll give this another week, but I would really like some discussion around
adopting this document -- please at least reply yeah, nay, or I-don't-care,
privately or to the list.

We will also need technical reviewers before adopting the document as a WG
item; volunteering is encouraged.

Thanks!
-d

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing <at> cisco.com] 
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:21 PM
> To: BEHAVE Working Group
> Subject: protocol design techniques, draft-ford-behave-app
> 
> We have the following milestone on our charter:
> 
>     Submit a BCP that discusses protocol design 
>     techniques for using the existing set of NAT 
>     traversal approaches to IESG
> 
> In essence:  describe how to do something like ICE.
> 
> The document draft-ford-behave-app appears to meet this milestone.
> 
(Continue reading)

Pyda Srisuresh | 2 Mar 15:29 2007
Picon

Re: WGLC for behave-p2pstate-02 starts now


--- Saikat Guha <saikat <at> cs.cornell.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 06:15 -0800, Pyda Srisuresh wrote:
> > As you can see the only requirement attributed to this term is
> > Endpoint-Independent mapping. This draft is focused solely on NAT traversal
> for
> > p2P applications. Whereas, RFC 4787 and TCP/ICMP Behave drafts are more
> > holistic and have a total of 32 (14+9+9) requirements for BEHAVE
> compliance.
> > For example, they each have mandatory timeout requirement that many NATs
> out
> > there do not comply with yet.
> 
> Just made a quick pass through the document, three comments.
>
[suresh] Thank you for your comments.

> 1) In the definition of P2P-Friendly, any particular reason why the
> other BEHAVE requirements are left out? For example, a NAT that
> instantly responds with a RST packet to any and all inbound-SYN packets
> is _not_ P2P friendly even if it had endpoint independent mappings.
> According to the current definition, it would be classified as P2P
> friendly.
>

[suresh] Saikat - The scope of the draft is restricted to describing techniques
used to set up 2-way communication between endoints of a peer-to-peer
application. No discussion of timeouts, RST processing, keepalives, fragment
handling etc. That is not what the draft is about. Given the restricted scope,
(Continue reading)

Mayank Dev Sondhi | 3 Mar 11:15 2007
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WGLC status and schedule

Hi All,
      I'm a little confused as to the current agenda for the review of various WGLC documents. I remember that as per the schedule I had before, the ice document was to be considered, however I find other new documents in the review queue.
      I may not have the correct schedule, could someone please point me to the current schedule so that I don't start reviewing docs that are not being considered for final review.
 
Thanks
Mayank
<div>
<div>Hi All,</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm a little confused as to the current agenda for the review of various WGLC documents. I remember that as per the schedule I had before, the ice document was to be considered, however I find other new documents in the review queue.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I may not have the correct schedule, could someone please point me to the current schedule so that I don't start reviewing docs that are not being considered for final review.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Mayank</div>
</div>
Pyda Srisuresh | 3 Mar 20:10 2007
Picon

Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt

Dear all,

The latest ICMP draft incorporates comments from the last WG meeting, feedback
from [ICMP-EXT] authors and comments from a number of individuals that reviewed
the draft and sent their comments. Below is a high level summary of changes in
this rev. Please review and send your comments on the list. Thanks.

1. For each requirement, the document now explicitly states whether the
requirement is necessary for current applications to work properly, or is meant
for future applications (future use, rather than current).

2. As sugegsted in the WG meeting, the ICMP draft specifies only the
translation of ICMP messages, and leaves the reaction up to each
protocol-specific document. REQ-6 is changed to reflect this.

3. In the introduction section, the draft indentifies requirements that relate
to ICMP packets going through the NAT versus requirements that relate to ICMP
packets being generated by the NAT.

4. The draft now adds [ICMP-EXT] as reference and updates relevant
requirements, with feedback from the authors of [ICMP-EXT]. REQ-3, REQ-4 and
REQ-5 are changed to reflect this.

5. Security considerations section is updated to add a comment w.r.t. REQ-8.

regards,
suresh

--- Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Behavior Engineering for Hindrance Avoidance
> Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title		: NAT Behavioral Requirements for ICMP protocol
> 	Author(s)	: P. Srisuresh, et al.
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt
> 	Pages		: 24
> 	Date		: 2007-3-1
> 	
> This document specifies the behavioral properties required of the 
>    Network Address Translator (NAT) devices in conjunction with the
>    ICMP protocol. The objective of this memo is to make NAT devices
>    more predictable and compatible with diverse application protocols
>    that traverse the devices. Companion documents provide behavioral
>    recommendations specific to TCP, UDP and other protocols.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt
> 
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
> i-d-announce-request <at> ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of 
> the message. 
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
> to change your subscription settings.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the 
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then 
> "get draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt".
> 
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> 
> Send a message to:
> 	mailserv <at> ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-nat-icmp-03.txt".
> 	
> NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> 
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
> > _______________________________________________
> Behave mailing list
> Behave <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave
> 

Dan Wing | 7 Mar 20:56 2007
Picon

RE: WGLC status and schedule


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mayank Dev Sondhi [mailto:msondhi <at> gmail.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 2:16 AM
> To: behave <at> ietf.org
> Subject: [BEHAVE] WGLC status and schedule
> 
> Hi All,
>       I'm a little confused as to the current agenda for the 
> review of various WGLC documents. I remember that as per the 
> schedule I had before, the ice document was to be considered, 
> however I find other new documents in the review queue. 

Although several of BEHAVE's documents have a tight relationship
with ICE, ICE is a product of the MMUSIC working group.

>       I may not have the correct schedule, could someone 
> please point me to the current schedule so that I don't start 
> reviewing docs that are not being considered for final review.

rfc3489bis and turn took longer than expected, which is why
I WGLC'd other documents so we could progress them (TCP, 
p2p-state).

BEHAVE's document status is at:

http://www.employees.org/behave/document-status.html

draft-ietf-behave-p2p-state-02's last call ended yesterday.  I
have been on vacation the last 4 days and will be reviewing the
comments received during last call over the next few days.

Rohan submitted turn-03 and it should be posted shortly.

As you saw, ICMP-03 was recently submitted.

I have not yet built the agenda for IETF, but I know that
rfc3489bis, TURN-03, p2p-state, and ICMP will certainly be on 
the agenda.  We will also be talking about our "Submit a BCP 
that discusses protocol design techniques for using the 
existing set of NAT traversal approaches" milestone, as 
no-one has commented on adopting draft-ford-behave-app
to meet this milestone.

-d

Internet-Drafts | 7 Mar 21:50 2007
Picon

I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Behavior Engineering for Hindrance Avoidance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Obtaining Relay Addresses from Simple Traversal Underneath NAT (STUN)
	Author(s)	: J. Rosenberg, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt
	Pages		: 44
	Date		: 2007-3-7
	
This specification defines a usage of the Simple Traversal Underneath
   NAT (STUN) Protocol for asking the STUN server to relay packets
   towards a client.  This usage is useful for elements behind NATs
   whose mapping behavior is address and port dependent.  The extension
   purposefully restricts the ways in which the relayed address can be
   used.  In particular, it prevents users from running general purpose
   servers from ports obtained from the STUN server.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt

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Attachment: message/external-body, 134 bytes
Attachment (draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt): message/external-body, 68 bytes
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Behavior Engineering for Hindrance Avoidance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Obtaining Relay Addresses from Simple Traversal Underneath NAT (STUN)
	Author(s)	: J. Rosenberg, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt
	Pages		: 44
	Date		: 2007-3-7
	
This specification defines a usage of the Simple Traversal Underneath
   NAT (STUN) Protocol for asking the STUN server to relay packets
   towards a client.  This usage is useful for elements behind NATs
   whose mapping behavior is address and port dependent.  The extension
   purposefully restricts the ways in which the relayed address can be
   used.  In particular, it prevents users from running general purpose
   servers from ports obtained from the STUN server.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-behave-turn-03.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
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Gmane