Jonathan Rosenberg | 1 Oct 2007 17:35
Picon
Favicon

Re: ICE and MSRP

This draft was written:
http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-niemi-simple-msrp-ice-00.txt

where TURN is used as an alternative to MSRP relays.

-Jonathan R.

Christer Holmberg wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Has there been any discussions/studies on how ICE works with MSRP, where 
> routing is not done based on SDP m/c/candidate information, but on 
> information in the MSRP messages themselves?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christer
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

--

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   600 Lanidex Plaza
Cisco Fellow                                   Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711
(Continue reading)

Miguel Garcia | 2 Oct 2007 08:41

Re: ICE and MSRP

You may also find this one of interest:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-denis-simple-msrp-comedia-00.txt

/Miguel

Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> This draft was written:
> http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-niemi-simple-msrp-ice-00.txt
> 
> where TURN is used as an alternative to MSRP relays.
> 
> -Jonathan R.
> 
> Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Has there been any discussions/studies on how ICE works with MSRP, 
>> where routing is not done based on SDP m/c/candidate information, but 
>> on information in the MSRP messages themselves?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
(Continue reading)

Adam Fisk | 3 Oct 2007 00:36

ICE retransmitted Binding Request processing

I've noticed in my ICE tests that it's quite common for a peer to receive multiple Binding Requests for the same STUN transaction as a result of STUN retransmissions. 

While this is to be expected, the processing of the request specified in ICE 18 section 7.2.1.4 "Triggered Checks" results in adding precisely the same candidate pair to the triggered check queue multiple times, resulting in multiple subsequent identical triggered checks and subsequent work.  Is this the expected behavior, or am I missing something?  While it doesn't seem the above will break anything, it doesn't appear optimal either. 

Should the triggered check queue filter duplicates?  Should the STUN server side in ICE ignore Binding Requests with transaction IDs it has already processed (clearly still sending Binding Responses, just not forwarding the request to the ICE procedures)?  I'd assume the latter, but it seems I must be missing something in one of the specs if this is the case.

This is assuming the ICE STUN server side just reprocesses each Binding Request and recomputes the Binding Response each time since the Binding method is idempotent, as specified in draft-ietf-behave-rfc3489bis-10 section 7.3.1 "Processing a Request."

Thanks very much.

-Adam Fisk

_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
Magnus Westerlund | 3 Oct 2007 09:42
Picon
Favicon

Re: ICE retransmitted Binding Request processing

Hi Adam,

In my opinion you should do the following.
- Always respond to binding requests, as the first response may not have
reached the requestor.

- Not perform the Triggered check for anything more than the first
request. No restart nor multiple queuing of the connectivity check for
that candidate pair.

I think there might be need for clarification on this in the ICE spec.

Cheers

Magnus

Adam Fisk skrev:
> I've noticed in my ICE tests that it's quite common for a peer to
> receive multiple Binding Requests for the same STUN transaction as a
> result of STUN retransmissions. 
> 
> While this is to be expected, the processing of the request specified in
> ICE 18 section 7.2.1.4 <http://7.2.1.4> "Triggered Checks" results in
> adding precisely the same candidate pair to the triggered check queue
> multiple times, resulting in multiple subsequent identical triggered
> checks and subsequent work.  Is this the expected behavior, or am I
> missing something?  While it doesn't seem the above will break anything,
> it doesn't appear optimal either. 
> 
> Should the triggered check queue filter duplicates?  Should the STUN
> server side in ICE ignore Binding Requests with transaction IDs it has
> already processed (clearly still sending Binding Responses, just not
> forwarding the request to the ICE procedures)?  I'd assume the latter,
> but it seems I must be missing something in one of the specs if this is
> the case.
> 
> This is assuming the ICE STUN server side just reprocesses each Binding
> Request and recomputes the Binding Response each time since the Binding
> method is idempotent, as specified in draft-ietf-behave-rfc3489bis-10
> section 7.3.1 "Processing a Request."
> 
> Thanks very much.
> 
> -Adam Fisk
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mmusic mailing list
> mmusic <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

--

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Stiemerling | 5 Oct 2007 15:36
Picon

RFC2326bis: A proposal about document size

Hi all,

draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc2326bis has currently an overall page count of 214 pages
and I doubt that many people have read the draft in the past as a whole... ;-)

After considering which part of the draft could shorten or moved to a different draft, I have have ended up with this as my personal conclusion:

Appendix B "Media Transport Alternatives" and Appendix C "Use of SDP for RTSP..." could be moved in separate drafts, as both are not necessarily part of RTSP itself, even though there somewhat required for operating RTSP.  However, this "required for operating RTSP" holds true in some environments, but not in all. For instance, in DVB network RTP is probably not used, but MPEG-2 TS. Same for SDP, as some might use it, some might not. 

Appendix B could be moved to a draft "Using RTSP with RTP as media transport" and Appendix C "SDP usage in RTSP" (titles are just suggestions!)

This would reduce the size of the draft, but, even more important, would clearly separate between the RTSP protocol and further protocols required by some architecture to build media delivery platforms. 

Any thoughts, suggestions, objections?

Thanks,

  Martin (draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc2326bis editor)

NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
Rémi Denis-Courmont | 5 Oct 2007 16:00
Picon

Re: RFC2326bis: A proposal about document size

Le Friday 05 October 2007 16:36:51 ext Martin Stiemerling, vous avez écrit :
> Appendix B "Media Transport Alternatives" and Appendix C "Use of SDP
> for RTSP..." could be moved in separate drafts, as both are not
> necessarily part of RTSP itself, even though there somewhat required
> for operating RTSP.  However, this "required for operating RTSP"
> holds true in some environments, but not in all.

> For instance, in DVB 
> network RTP is probably not used, but MPEG-2 TS.

Do you mean TS over RTP, or TS over plain UDP?

I know uses of both, though I think the second one should really be heavily 
discouraged. Apparently, it screws up completely whenever there is packet 
re-ordering.

> Same for SDP, as some might use it, some might not.

I agree that the spec is way too long, but removing essential parts may just 
make matters worse. At the end of the day, it makes the entire thing even 
longer, that's why... I mean, what's the use of an RTSP stack without RTP 
(especially when raw TS over UDP is so broken).

I would have thought of moving all the proxying stuff to a separate document, 
à la MSRP, perhaps.

--

-- 
Rémi Denis-Courmont
Magnus Westerlund | 8 Oct 2007 10:19
Picon
Favicon

Re: RFC2326bis: A proposal about document size

Hi,

I think we should be careful of splitting of to much normative functions
into other documents. I think one of the more important things is to
make it more readable. I think the main problem is the initial sections.
I also think there is some informative text that could be moved into
some separate purely informative document. But I wonder if that really
can be moved in way that will make sense. I think we will need to look
into this more.

Rémi Denis-Courmont skrev:
> Le Friday 05 October 2007 16:36:51 ext Martin Stiemerling, vous avez écrit :
>> Appendix B "Media Transport Alternatives" and Appendix C "Use of SDP
>> for RTSP..." could be moved in separate drafts, as both are not
>> necessarily part of RTSP itself, even though there somewhat required
>> for operating RTSP.  However, this "required for operating RTSP"
>> holds true in some environments, but not in all.
> 
>> For instance, in DVB 
>> network RTP is probably not used, but MPEG-2 TS.
> 
> Do you mean TS over RTP, or TS over plain UDP?

I don't think this matter as RTSP is intended to possible to use with
any media transport. However, that media transport must specify the
equivalent to Appendix B. But TS over RTP falls under the RTP usage, so
I think Martin meant MPEG-2 TS over UDP.

> 
> I know uses of both, though I think the second one should really be heavily 
> discouraged. Apparently, it screws up completely whenever there is packet 
> re-ordering.
> 
>> Same for SDP, as some might use it, some might not.
> 
> I agree that the spec is way too long, but removing essential parts may just 
> make matters worse. At the end of the day, it makes the entire thing even 
> longer, that's why... I mean, what's the use of an RTSP stack without RTP 
> (especially when raw TS over UDP is so broken).

Well, this is actually a pluggable part. And I think this will make it
clearer that there is the signalling and then one or more media
transports being negotiated. But if this is a real benefit or not I
wouldn't say. The end result will be that there will be more pages to
read in total.

> 
> 
> I would have thought of moving all the proxying stuff to a separate document, 
> à la MSRP, perhaps.
> 

I far from convinced that this is the right move. However, we probably
should look into this. The important is that we then must succeed to
only move functionality that really are valid for the proxy only. In
cases the client or server must be aware of the proxy, these functions
must be specified in the base spec. I don't know how easy this is.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Magnus Westerlund | 8 Oct 2007 17:09
Picon
Favicon

BOF request under consideration: SAFE

Hi,

We ADs have received a request for a BOF in Vancouver: SAFE -
Self-Address Fixing Evolution. See description below. I would appreciate
any feedback on this. For public discussion please use the SAFE mailing
list.

Post: safe <at> ietf.org
Subscribe: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/safe

Draft:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage-03.txt

SAFE - Self-Address Fixing Evolution
------------------------------------

Chairs:
  TBD

ICE and its companion protocol STUN have been successfully deployed on
the Internet for NAT traversal.  ICE and STUN have several characteristics
which contribute to their success:

  1. incremental deployment.  ICE and STUN are functional without any
     modifications to existing NATs.
  2. nested NATs.  ICE and STUN work when there are multiple NATs
     between a host and the Internet.
  3. topology unaware.  ICE and STUN are not configured with
     information about NATs, firewalls, or their locations -- only
     with the IP address of a server on the Internet.
  4. simple security model.  If a host behind a NAT is allowed to send
     a packet across the NAT, it is allowed to receive a response.
  5. works on routed networks, which allows operation in both
     enterprise networks and home networks.

Other NAT traversal protocols do not share these characteristics,
which hinders their widespread deployment.  Specifically,

  * incremental deployment is not possible with MIDCOM, NSIS-NSLP,
    UPnP, or Bonjour.  With all of these protocols, both the NAT
    and the endpoint have to support the same protocol.
  * nested NATs are not possible with UPnP or Bonjour.
  * topology awareness is required of MIDCOM.
  * security must be established between the controlling entity
    and the NAT for MIDCOM and NSIS-NSLP.
  * Both UPnP and Bonjour use broadcast packets which don't work
    well on routed networks.

However, a drawback of ICE/STUN is its chatty keepalive traffic,
which is a result of STUN not knowing the binding lifetime of its
on-path NATs.  This chattiness causes a burden on servers and
consumes network bandwidth, which is especially critical on wireless
networks.  It is desirable to reduce this chattiness while still
retaining the important characteristics of STUN and ICE.

This BoF is intended to discuss one proposed technique,
draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage, which nearly eliminates
STUN's keepalive chatter and still preserves the desirable
characteristics of STUN/ICE.

The purpose of this BoF is to create a working group for this effort.

Agenda:
  Introduction, Agenda ....................................  5
  Summary of existing NAT traversal techniques ............ 40
   (UPnP, NAT-PMP/Bonjour, MIDCOM techniques, NSIS-NSLP, ICE)
  draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage ................ 40
  Q&A ..................................................... 25
                                                    ----------
                                                    total: 110

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
rfc-editor | 17 Oct 2007 03:06
Favicon

RFC 5027 on Security Preconditions for Session Description Protocol (SDP) Media Streams


A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 5027

        Title:      Security Preconditions for Session Description 
                    Protocol (SDP) Media Streams 
        Author:     F. Andreasen, D. Wing
        Status:     Standards Track
        Date:       October 2007
        Mailbox:    fandreas <at> cisco.com, 
                    dwing <at> cisco.com
        Pages:      16
        Characters: 37229
        Updates:    RFC3312
        See-Also:   

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-mmusic-securityprecondition-04.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5027.txt

This document defines a new security precondition for the Session
Description Protocol (SDP) precondition framework described in RFCs
3312 and 4032.  A security precondition can be used to delay session
establishment or modification until media stream security for a
secure media stream has been negotiated successfully.  [STANDARDS TRACK]

This document is a product of the Multiparty Multimedia Session Control
Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
 Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
 status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST <at> IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST <at> RFC-EDITOR.ORG.

Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
an EMAIL message to rfc-info <at> RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body 

help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:

        To: rfc-info <at> RFC-EDITOR.ORG
        Subject: getting rfcs

        help: ways_to_get_rfcs

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager <at> RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.

Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR <at> RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.

The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...
Adam Fisk | 8 Oct 2007 23:11

ICE-18 Nominating pairs on controlled agents

Apologies for the comments so late in the game on the ICE drafts, but there appears to be a minor error in the nominating of pairs on controlled agents.

Section 7.1.2.2.4 on performing STUN client connectivity checks reads:

"If the agent is the controlled agent, the response may result in the valid pair having its nominated flag set. See section 7.2.1.5 for the procedure."
    -- http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-18#section-7.1.2.2.4

7.2.1.5 then reads:

"If the Binding Request received by the agent had the USE-CANDIDATE attribute set, and the agent is in the controlled role, the agent looks at the state of the pair computed in Section 7.2.1.4:" 
    -- http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-18#section-7.2.1.5

Shouldn't the last part of 7.2.1.5 at least read: "the agent looks at the state of the pair computed in Section 7.2.1.4 or in Section 7.1.2.2.4:"?  Otherwise, you'd just immediately ignore then whole of section 7.2.1.5 when processing pairs computed from section 7.1.2.2.4.

That's it for the "error" -- almost more a nit really.  Digging a little deeper, though, it seems to me that the nomination decision for the controlled agent in 7.1.2.2.4 should be really simple and should not have to reference section 7.2.1.5 at all.  Basically, if the pair received USE-CANDIDATE in the past, it should be nominated.  This is because the pair has just reached the successful state when we get to section 7.1.2.2.4, so all we need to know is whether or not we've received USE-CANDIDATE yet or not. 

Does that make sense?  I think referencing 7.2.1.5 makes it seem like a more complicated decision than it is, is much harder to understand, and breaks up the document flow.  Those issues aside, though, it seems like the opening of 7.2.1.5 should at the very least acknowledge that the pair could have also come from 7.1.2.2.4.

Again, I hate to bring this up so late in the game, but I only just noticed it.

Thanks.

-Adam


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

Gmane