Re: Lowercase language names and the Registry
Debbie Garside <debbie <at> ictmarketing.co.uk>
2009-02-02 10:10:24 GMT
Addison wrote:
>> So… to be clear, I favor putting *exactly* what ISO 639 has into the initial registry unless it
conflicts with a specific provision of 4646bis
+1
Debbie
From:
ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
Sent: 30 January 2009 18:15
To: Gerard Meijssen; CE Whitehead
Cc: ltru <at> ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase
language names and the Registry
The RFC says quite
clearly that the ‘Description’ fields in the registry exist only to provide for
unambiguous identification of subtag meaning. They should not be taken to be
the localized name or in any particular language. Mainly the registry mirrors
whatever one of the ISO groups has put into their standards. 4646bis allows for
some cleanup/editing by the LSR in cases where the name has some sort of
formatting problem (hence Doug’s inquiry). This is different from the goals of
CLDR. People can and should rely on CLDR to be correct in presentation. But we
have already warned users NOT to rely on the description fields in the
registry.
Note that the
registration process exists to allow users of the registry to correct or add
additional descriptive material. My tendency is to favor mirroring exactly what
ISO 639 has in the “initial” registry. If someone feels strongly about it, they
can petition ietf-languages <at> to change it. That’s what the process is for and I
would tend to support corrections that native language speakers feel strongly
about.
So… to be clear, I
favor putting *exactly* what ISO
639 has into the initial registry unless it conflicts with a specific provision
of 4646bis.
Addison
Phillips
Globalization
Architect -- Lab126
Internationalization
is not a feature.
It is
an architecture.
From:
ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009
10:07 AM
To: CE Whitehead
Cc: ltru <at> ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase
language names and the Registry
Hoi,
If the list is ony to be used as a list with a local application, I agree. When
people want to use lists like this or the CLDR language list, they depend on
the information to be right. It is not and people do.
Thanks,
Gerard
2009/1/30 CE Whitehead <cewcathar <at> hotmail.com>
Hi. I
think Leif and Doug get my vote here.
In a list I'd feel comfortable 'title-casing' the first word in French (a language in which language names are also normally 'lower-cased').
But I'm not a native speaker.
(NOTE: I found different conventions regarding titles online:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=histoire+du+francais&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=francais&btnG=Search [these are not lists however, just titles].
when a French title appears on a book in the U.S. market, every word on the book may be title-cased:
http://shopping.msn.com/prices/allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=itemname:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd Wikipedia has two conventions for lists in French it seems?:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_langues_officielles
in one the first word, whether the language name or a definite article preceding the name, is 'upper cased'; in the other list the names are almost all 'lower cased')
Thanks.
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar <at> hotmail.com
From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform.no>
To: Doug Ewell <doug at
ewellic.org>
Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:
So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and
lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested
(see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
Finland-Swedish Sign Language finlandssvenskt teckenspråk suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli
[...]
I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry
generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags be
modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin with a
capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary to spell
the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent
with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description fields to be
"edited or modified" from the ISO rendering.
Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it
will be added to the next draft-4645bis.
In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with upper-case
letter even in Scandinavian languages, as long as the names appears in a list
-aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words.
Hence, I'm ok with it.
--leif halvard silli
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<div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Addison</span><span> wrote:<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>>> </span><span>So… to be clear, I favor putting *<span>exactly</span>* what ISO 639 has into the initial registry unless it
conflicts with a specific provision of 4646bis<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>+1<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Debbie</span><span><p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span>
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From:</span><span>
ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org] <span>On Behalf Of </span>Phillips, Addison<br><span>Sent:</span> 30 January 2009 18:15<br><span>To:</span> Gerard Meijssen; CE Whitehead<br><span>Cc:</span> ltru <at> ietf.org<br><span>Subject:</span> Re: [Ltru] Lowercase
language names and the Registry</span><p></p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>The RFC says quite
clearly that the ‘Description’ fields in the registry exist only to provide for
unambiguous identification of subtag meaning. They should not be taken to be
the localized name or in any particular language. Mainly the registry mirrors
whatever one of the ISO groups has put into their standards. 4646bis allows for
some cleanup/editing by the LSR in cases where the name has some sort of
formatting problem (hence Doug’s inquiry). This is different from the goals of
CLDR. People can and should rely on CLDR to be correct in presentation. But we
have already warned users NOT to rely on the description fields in the
registry.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Note that the
registration process exists to allow users of the registry to correct or add
additional descriptive material. My tendency is to favor mirroring exactly what
ISO 639 has in the “initial” registry. If someone feels strongly about it, they
can petition ietf-languages <at> to change it. That’s what the process is for and I
would tend to support corrections that native language speakers feel strongly
about.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So… to be clear, I
favor putting *<span>exactly</span>* what ISO
639 has into the initial registry unless it conflicts with a specific provision
of 4646bis.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Addison
Phillips<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Globalization
Architect -- Lab126<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Internationalization
is not a feature.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>It is
an architecture.<p></p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From:</span><span>
ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces <at> ietf.org] <span>On Behalf Of </span>Gerard Meijssen<br><span>Sent:</span> Friday, January 30, 2009
10:07 AM<br><span>To:</span> CE Whitehead<br><span>Cc:</span> ltru <at> ietf.org<br><span>Subject:</span> Re: [Ltru] Lowercase
language names and the Registry<p></p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hoi,<br>
If the list is ony to be used as a list with a local application, I agree. When
people want to use lists like this or the CLDR language list, they depend on
the information to be right. It is not and people do.<br>
Thanks,<br>
Gerard<p></p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>2009/1/30 CE Whitehead <<a href="mailto:cewcathar <at> hotmail.com">cewcathar <at> hotmail.com</a>><p></p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br></span><span>Hi. I
think Leif and Doug get my vote here.</span><br><span> </span><p></p></p>
<span>In a list I'd feel comfortable 'title-casing' the first word in French (a language in which language names are also normally 'lower-cased').</span><p></p>
<span>But I'm not a native speaker. </span><p></p>
<span> <p></p></span><span>(NOTE: I found different conventions regarding titles online:</span><p></p>
<span><a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=histoire+du+francais&btnG=Search" target="_blank"><span>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=histoire+du+francais&btnG=Search</span></a></span><span> </span><p></p>
<span><a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=francais&btnG=Search" target="_blank"><span>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=francais&btnG=Search</span></a></span><span> [these are not lists however, just titles].</span><p></p>
<span>when a French title appears on a book in the U.S. market, every word on the book may be title-cased:</span><p></p>
<span><a href="http://shopping.msn.com/prices/allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=itemname:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd" target="_blank"><span>http://shopping.msn.com/prices/allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=itemname:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd</span></a> <p></p></span><span>Wikipedia has two conventions for lists in French it seems?:</span><p></p>
<span><a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique</a></span><p></p>
<span><a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_langues_officielles" target="_blank">http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_langues_officielles</a></span><p></p>
<span><p> </p></span><span>in one the first word, whether the language name or a definite article preceding the name, is 'upper cased'; in the other list the names are almost all 'lower cased')</span><p></p>
<span><p> </p></span><span> </span><p></p>
<span>Thanks.</span><p></p>
<span> </span><p></p>
<span>--C. E. Whitehead</span><p></p>
<span><a href="mailto:cewcathar <at> hotmail.com" target="_blank"><span>cewcathar <at> hotmail.com</span></a></span><span> <br><br><p></p></span><span> <p></p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<p></p></span></p>
<h1><span> <p></p></span></h1>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>From: Leif Halvard Silli <<a href="mailto:lhs <at> DOMAIN.HIDDEN" target="_blank">lhs at malform.no</a>> <br>
To: Doug Ewell <<a href="mailto:doug <at> DOMAIN.HIDDEN" target="_blank">doug at
ewellic.org</a>> <p></p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<span>Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:<p></p></span>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and
lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested
(see <a href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf</a>):
</span><p></p></p>
<span><p> </p></span><span> Finland-Swedish Sign Language<p></p></span><span> finlandssvenskt teckenspråk<p></p></span><span> suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli<p></p></span>
</blockquote>
<span> [...]<p></p></span><span><p> </p></span>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry
generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags be
modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin with a
capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary to spell
the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent
with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description fields to be
"edited or modified" from the ISO rendering. </span><p></p></p>
<span><p> </p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it
will be added to the next draft-4645bis. </span><p></p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with upper-case
letter even in Scandinavian languages, as long as the names appears in a list
-aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words.
Hence, I'm ok with it. </span><p></p></p>
<span><p> </p></span><span>--<p></p></span><span>leif halvard silli<p></p></span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><p> </p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
What I would like to see is information added to the PV field for "YU" (
such as ":2006-10-05") to indicate when "CS" became invalid as the PV.
However, I am, assuming that this would entail an update to 4646bis and is,
therefore, unlikely to be incorporated at this time.
I would ask that you be careful to not inadvertently delete some of the dots
that join the Registry. However, I cannot, on this fine, cold, soon to be
snowy, Monday morning, think of a valid reason why other than on principle -
I'll try another coffee and maybe write again. 
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