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ISO639-3 | 7 Apr 2011 22:23
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deprecating www as language code

Dear IETF Readers,

I have had the suggestion to deprecate www in the language coding. See the message below, and let me know what
you think:

As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are some problems with certain codes when
they are used in URLs. For example, the code 'www', which is used for the Wawa language of Cameroon, is
problematic because when it is used as subdomain, it obviously conflicts with the root domain.
For example, the English Wikipdia is en.wikipedia.org because its ISO 639-1 code is 'en'.
For the Wawa Wikipedia, this would be www.wikipedia.org which conflicts with the portal.

I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are already taken).

Thank you for your input.

Melinda Lyons
ISO 639-3 RA
SIL International 
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Road
Dallas, TX 75236
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Casey Brown | 8 Apr 2011 00:23
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Re: deprecating www as language code

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:23 PM, ISO639-3 <iso639-3 <at> sil.org> wrote:
> As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are some problems with certain codes when
they are used in URLs. For example, the code 'www', which is used for the Wawa language of Cameroon, is
problematic because when it is used as subdomain, it obviously conflicts with the root domain.
> For example, the English Wikipdia is en.wikipedia.org because its ISO 639-1 code is 'en'.
> For the Wawa Wikipedia, this would be www.wikipedia.org which conflicts with the portal.
>
> I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are already taken).

I definitely agree and was actually going to request something like
this myself, but this person beat me to it. :-)

The ISO codes are a great tool, but we can't use them when there are
conflicts like this.  A change from "www" would be a great idea, and
"wwx" works well.

--

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023
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John Cowan | 8 Apr 2011 03:33

Re: deprecating www as language code

ISO639-3 scripsit:

> I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are
> already taken).

I'm in favor of this change.

--

-- 
I could dance with you till the cows            John Cowan
come home.  On second thought, I'd              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
rather dance with the cows when you             cowan <at> ccil.org
come home.  --Rufus T. Firefly
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Stephane Bortzmeyer | 8 Apr 2011 09:03
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Re: deprecating www as language code

On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 03:23:51PM -0500,
 ISO639-3 <iso639-3 <at> sil.org> wrote 
 a message of 21 lines which said:

> As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are
> some problems with certain codes when they are used in URLs. For
> example, the code 'www', which is used for the Wawa language of
> Cameroon, is problematic because when it is used as subdomain, it
> obviously conflicts with the root domain.

I understand the rationale (although the root cause is that HTTP,
stupidly, does not use SRV records and instead rely on the 'www'
convention), but remember that, even if ISO 639 changes the code, RFC
5646 rules (section 3.4) will still make the code live forever (even
if it is with "Deprecated: 2011-04-08" and "Preferred-Value: wwx").
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Michael Everson | 8 Apr 2011 09:41
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Re: deprecating www as language code

On 7 Apr 2011, at 21:23, ISO639-3 wrote:

> I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are already taken).

Good idea. See also http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/04/wwwwikipediaorg-is-not-available-for.html

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
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Martin J. Dürst | 8 Apr 2011 10:59
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Re: deprecating www as language code

On 2011/04/08 16:03, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 03:23:51PM -0500,
>   ISO639-3<iso639-3 <at> sil.org>  wrote
>   a message of 21 lines which said:
>
>> As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are
>> some problems with certain codes when they are used in URLs. For
>> example, the code 'www', which is used for the Wawa language of
>> Cameroon, is problematic because when it is used as subdomain, it
>> obviously conflicts with the root domain.
>
> I understand the rationale (although the root cause is that HTTP,
> stupidly, does not use SRV records and instead rely on the 'www'
> convention),

Well, there is nothing in HTTP itself that adds the 'www', or that says 
that a domain name for a Web site has to start with www (many don't).

<technical excursion>
Some (if not most) browsers prefix a 'www' to a domain name if they 
can't find an HTTP server at the original domain name (this, as well as 
the default postfix(es), such as .com, are usually configurable). Also, 
many servers redirect a request to a 'naked' domain name to one with 
'www' prefixed (e.g. amazon.com -> www.amazon.com), but that's purely 
the server's choice.

Purely using a 'naked' domain name for Web traffic may be a bit more 
complex to set up depending on what else that naked domain is also 
supposed to serve, but in low volume situations, everything is on the 
same machine anyway, and in high volume situations, load balancers and
(Continue reading)

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Kent Karlsson | 8 Apr 2011 11:08
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Re: deprecating www as language code


Den 2011-04-08 09:03, skrev "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer <at> nic.fr>:

> On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 03:23:51PM -0500,
>  ISO639-3 <iso639-3 <at> sil.org> wrote
>  a message of 21 lines which said:
> 
>> As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are
>> some problems with certain codes when they are used in URLs. For
>> example, the code 'www', which is used for the Wawa language of
>> Cameroon, is problematic because when it is used as subdomain, it
>> obviously conflicts with the root domain.
> 
> I understand the rationale (although the root cause is that HTTP,
> stupidly, does not use SRV records and instead rely on the 'www'

There is no requirement for web servers to have a domain name starting with
"www.".

> convention), but remember that, even if ISO 639 changes the code, RFC
> 5646 rules (section 3.4) will still make the code live forever (even
> if it is with "Deprecated: 2011-04-08" and "Preferred-Value: wwx").

Which is one reason this is an exercise in futility. In addition, I find
the reasoning behind this request to be faulty. Just let the Wikipedia
"root" have the name "wikipedia.org". That name currently redirects to
"www.wikipedia.org". That redirection is not required. At some
later point, use "www.wikipedia.org" for Wawa (with some banner at top
with a link to "wikipedia.org").
(Continue reading)

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Michael Everson | 8 Apr 2011 11:16
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Re: deprecating www as language code

Well, Martin, in the real world people say "URL" for "URI", and people use "www." for "worldwide web". 

On 8 Apr 2011, at 09:59, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

> As for Wikipedia, claiming that the code 'www' for Wawa is a problem seems to just try to dump the problem on
somebody else.

No, it is a reaction to a fact. 

> There are at least two solutions for Wikipedia that don't require a code change:
> 
> 1) Use www.wikipedia.org for Wawa, and wikipedia.org for the main site. On www.wikipedia.org, add a link
saying that the main site is at wikipedia.org. The problem with this solution may be that there are tons of
links out there to www.wikipedia.org (or some pages therein), which would change.

But this would be user-friendly to nobody, since the overwhelming majority of users will not be looking for
content in Wawa. 

> 2) Choose a domain prefix for Wawa as wikipedia pleases. E.g. wawa.

Their policy is to use ISO language codes. 

> So my conclusion would be to tell Wikipedia to get their act together and choose something like
wawa.wikipedia.org for wawa.
> 
> This is highly preferable to changing language codes, because it avoids any followup requests (www is by
way the most famous domain name prefix, but there are others in wide or not so wide use that may clash with
language codes).

In the abstract, maybe. But in this case, I think it's clear that "www." won't mean "Wawa" to nearly anyone,
(Continue reading)

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Richard BUDELBERGER | 8 Apr 2011 13:58
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re: deprecating www as language code

> Message du 07/04/11 22:24
> De : ISO639-3 
> A : ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> Objet : deprecating www as language code
> 
> Dear IETF Readers,
> 
> I have had the suggestion to deprecate www in the language coding. See the message below, and let me know
what you think:
> 
> As more and more websites use the ISO 639 language codes, there are some problems with certain codes when
they are used in URLs. For example, the code 
'www', which is used for the Wawa language of Cameroon, is problematic because when it is used as subdomain,
it obviously conflicts with the root domain.
> For example, the English Wikipdia is en.wikipedia.org because its ISO 639-1 code is 'en'.
> For the Wawa Wikipedia, this would be www.wikipedia.org which conflicts with the portal.

And what about gay for gayo ? gay.wikipedia.org !

> I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are already taken).
> 
> Thank you for your input.
> 
> Melinda Lyons
> ISO 639-3 RA
> SIL International 
> 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Road
> Dallas, TX 75236
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
(Continue reading)

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John Cowan | 8 Apr 2011 15:38

Re: deprecating www as language code

Michael Everson scripsit:
> On 7 Apr 2011, at 21:23, ISO639-3 wrote:
> 
> > I propose to change 'www' to for example 'wwx' ('waw' and others are already taken).
> 
> Good idea. See also http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/04/wwwwikipediaorg-is-not-available-for.html

I further propose that "ftp", which is used in much the same way, be
permanently reserved at this time.

--

-- 
So they play that [tune] on                     John Cowan
their fascist banjos, eh?                       cowan <at> ccil.org
        --Great-Souled Sam                      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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