Doug Ewell | 13 Nov 06:13
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Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

This is just a reminder -- inspired by a false-alarm WatchThatPage 
message I got today -- that ISO 639-3/RA will be reviewing the 2009 
batch of change requests through December 15, and will issue a report, 
probably in January, listing all the changes they have approved.

This will be the first time that the annual round of ISO 639-3 changes 
will directly affect the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  In past years, 
as part of the effort to keep draft-4645bis up to date, I kept track of 
these changes myself.  Now, they will be a full part of the 
ietf-languages change control process.  Each 639-3 change that affects 
the Registry will require its own proposed record and registration form, 
posted to this list for a two-week review period, and will have to be 
submitted individually to IANA.  This is the process outlined in RFC 
5646 and approved by the IETF and IESG.

Last year the RA approved 150 changes; the year before, 383.  This year, 
there are 143 pending change requests to be considered.  That does not 
mean the RA will necessarily approve them all, or that each approved 
request will map 1-to-1 with a change in the Registry, but it would not 
be unrealistic to assume 100 or more changes.

I just want to make sure that everyone is aware this workload is coming, 
probably about two months from now, and that we don't treat it as some 
sort of sudden, unexpected anomaly and propose ad-hoc rule changes to 
work around it.  It is the way of our future, once a year.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

(Continue reading)

ISO639-3 | 13 Nov 16:13
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Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming


Thank you, Doug, for preparing the way by sending this reminder. I am using the occasion to invite participants in this list to comment on any pending request, by sending your comment to iso639-3 <at> sil.org, so that they may be included in the public records for the relevant change requests.  Please include the change request number in the subject line of the message. All the requests are listed at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_requests.asp
I see no problem with also copying any comment to this list, if appropriate, though I leave the guidance on that to the list moderators. Certainly a few of the change requests have already been topics of discussion on this list in the past.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Joan Spanne
ISO 639-3/RA
SIL International
7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
Dallas, TX 75236
ISO639-3 <at> sil.org


"Doug Ewell" <doug <at> ewellic.org>
Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no

2009-11-12 11:13 PM

To
<ietf-languages <at> iana.org>
cc
Subject
Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming





This is just a reminder -- inspired by a false-alarm WatchThatPage
message I got today -- that ISO 639-3/RA will be reviewing the 2009
batch of change requests through December 15, and will issue a report,
probably in January, listing all the changes they have approved.

This will be the first time that the annual round of ISO 639-3 changes
will directly affect the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  In past years,
as part of the effort to keep draft-4645bis up to date, I kept track of
these changes myself.  Now, they will be a full part of the
ietf-languages change control process.  Each 639-3 change that affects
the Registry will require its own proposed record and registration form,
posted to this list for a two-week review period, and will have to be
submitted individually to IANA.  This is the process outlined in RFC
5646 and approved by the IETF and IESG.

Last year the RA approved 150 changes; the year before, 383.  This year,
there are 143 pending change requests to be considered.  That does not
mean the RA will necessarily approve them all, or that each approved
request will map 1-to-1 with a change in the Registry, but it would not
be unrealistic to assume 100 or more changes.

I just want to make sure that everyone is aware this workload is coming,
probably about two months from now, and that we don't treat it as some
sort of sudden, unexpected anomaly and propose ad-hoc rule changes to
work around it.  It is the way of our future, once a year.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages <at> http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Phillips, Addison | 13 Nov 17:30
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RE: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

Hello Doug,

Thanks for this warning.

I agree with your reading of RFC 5646, but note that it does not require this exercise to be done in the least
efficient manner imaginable :-).

Certainly each proposed change/addition must have its own proposed record and registration form (note
that the form contains the record, so these are effectively the same thing). It does not say anywhere that
the changes must be individually submitted to ietf-languages@ nor that they must all be considered
separately. I would suggest that they be batched by the reviewer based upon his evaluation (e.g. separate
the additions from the modifications and the records requiring additional scrutiny if such exist from
the routine). I would expect most of them to be routine, assuming the proposed records were assembled
according to the rules. This will be significant work for you, I dare say, since the Description fields
have some requirements that are more difficult to verify.

Section 5.1 does say that forms sent to IANA must have individual emails. However, this could be
coordinated so that they don't have to process each of the hundred odd emails separately... by sending
them the batched records as well. It would be best to talk to them about the coordination, especially since
the resulting registry should be validated for things such as inadvertent duplication of a record.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:14 PM
> To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
> Subject: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming
> 
> This is just a reminder -- inspired by a false-alarm WatchThatPage
> message I got today -- that ISO 639-3/RA will be reviewing the 2009
> batch of change requests through December 15, and will issue a
> report,
> probably in January, listing all the changes they have approved.
> 
> This will be the first time that the annual round of ISO 639-3
> changes
> will directly affect the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  In past
> years,
> as part of the effort to keep draft-4645bis up to date, I kept
> track of
> these changes myself.  Now, they will be a full part of the
> ietf-languages change control process.  Each 639-3 change that
> affects
> the Registry will require its own proposed record and registration
> form,
> posted to this list for a two-week review period, and will have to
> be
> submitted individually to IANA.  This is the process outlined in
> RFC
> 5646 and approved by the IETF and IESG.
> 
> Last year the RA approved 150 changes; the year before, 383.  This
> year,
> there are 143 pending change requests to be considered.  That does
> not
> mean the RA will necessarily approve them all, or that each
> approved
> request will map 1-to-1 with a change in the Registry, but it would
> not
> be unrealistic to assume 100 or more changes.
> 
> I just want to make sure that everyone is aware this workload is
> coming,
> probably about two months from now, and that we don't treat it as
> some
> sort of sudden, unexpected anomaly and propose ad-hoc rule changes
> to
> work around it.  It is the way of our future, once a year.
> 
> --
> Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org

> RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
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http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Michael Everson | 13 Nov 17:42
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Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

On 13 Nov 2009, at 05:13, Doug Ewell wrote:

> Each 639-3 change that affects the Registry will require its own proposed record and registration form,
posted to this list for a two-week review period, and will have to be submitted individually to IANA.  This
is the process outlined in RFC 5646 and approved by the IETF and IESG.

What? That's just stupid. What kind of busy-work is it for me to sit and format 150 individual e-mails to
IANA? Surely these can be just as safely transmitted to them in a single .zip file.

> I just want to make sure that everyone is aware this workload is coming,  probably about two months from now,
and that we don't treat it as some sort of sudden, unexpected anomaly and propose ad-hoc rule changes to
work around it.  It is the way of our future, once a year.

I formally propose that massive changes and uncontroversial like this be transmitted safely in a single
.zip file. I propose this now, so that the rule changes are not "ad-hoc" but agreed in advance.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Doug Ewell | 14 Nov 05:47
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Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

"Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon dot com> wrote:

> I agree with your reading of RFC 5646, but note that it does not 
> require this exercise to be done in the least efficient manner 
> imaginable :-).

I think you and Michael are probably right that Michael can send IANA a 
single zip file containing N new or changed records plus N registration 
forms (where N is somewhere in the 100 to 140 range).  Of course we will 
need to check with IANA on this, but I suspect they would also prefer to 
receive one mail with a big attachment instead of 2N separate mails.

However, those records and forms will still have to be posted to this 
list for 2 weeks, which will result in a lot of list traffic, and 
probably more than a few complaints that our rules are too cumbersome 
and rigid.  But many of us are the ones who spent years in LTRU writing 
the rules, and we have an obligation to follow them.

> Certainly each proposed change/addition must have its own proposed 
> record and registration form (note that the form contains the record, 
> so these are effectively the same thing).

Not exactly; the records have to have File-Date and Added fields, not 
present in the reg form.

> It does not say anywhere that the changes must be individually 
> submitted to ietf-languages@ nor that they must all be considered 
> separately. I would suggest that they be batched by the reviewer based 
> upon his evaluation (e.g. separate the additions from the 
> modifications and the records requiring additional scrutiny if such 
> exist from the routine). I would expect most of them to be routine, 
> assuming the proposed records were assembled according to the rules. 
> This will be significant work for you, I dare say, since the 
> Description fields have some requirements that are more difficult to 
> verify.

Good sugggestions.  When I post these, I will try to draw a clear 
distinction between the additions and the modifications.  There may be 
some that go together in complex ways -- for example, there are 
proposals to convert existing individual language code elements into 
macrolanguages -- so I'll try to organize those in a meaningful way too.

Most of these should require about the same amount of scrutiny, 
primarily to make sure I haven't made some type of clerical error in 
adapting 100+ ISO actions to the Registry.  One major exception would be 
if any of the additions or changes resulted in a name collision (Section 
3.1.5), and I'll certainly try to detect those and warn the list.  None 
of the changes should be considered so routine that it's not worth 
verifying them, however.

Yeah, this will be a lot of work for me, but it's worth it to continue 
to have a good standard with a reliable, internally consistent data 
source.  I wish all such standards were maintained by people who paid 
such attention to detail.  (Yeah, I'm talking to you, UNECE 
Secretariat.)

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

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Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 14 Nov 05:53
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Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

Joan Spanne <ISO639 dash 3 at sil dot org> wrote:

> Thank you, Doug, for preparing the way by sending this reminder. I am 
> using the occasion to invite participants in this list to comment on 
> any pending request, by sending your comment to iso639-3 at sil.org, 
> so that they may be included in the public records for the relevant 
> change requests. Please include the change request number in the 
> subject line of the message. All the requests are listed at 
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_requests.asp

I do plan to take advantage of this opportunity to argue against change 
request 2009-070.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ 

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http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Peter Constable | 14 Nov 10:27
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RE: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

I was looking through some of the change requests, and was thrilled at what I saw: a process of refinement in understanding of the world’s languages with input from a variety of sources and all publicly documented. I’m sure it’s not unlike what has long happened with Ethnologue, though I wonder if standardization in ISO 639 hasn’t increased public awareness of the catalogue (e.g., the Mong input seems to have been arisen because of ISO 639-3), and there wasn’t a mechanism with Ethnologue to publicly document input. And a lot of the input is providing great documentation.

 

This is wonderful! Thanks for all you’ve done on this.

 

 

Peter

 

 

From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of ISO639-3 <at> sil.org
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:13 AM
To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
Subject: Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

 


Thank you, Doug, for preparing the way by sending this reminder. I am using the occasion to invite participants in this list to comment on any pending request, by sending your comment to iso639-3 <at> sil.org, so that they may be included in the public records for the relevant change requests.  Please include the change request number in the subject line of the message. All the requests are listed at http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_requests.asp
I see no problem with also copying any comment to this list, if appropriate, though I leave the guidance on that to the list moderators. Certainly a few of the change requests have already been topics of discussion on this list in the past.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Joan Spanne
ISO 639-3/RA
SIL International
7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
Dallas, TX 75236
ISO639-3 <at> sil.org


"Doug Ewell" <doug <at> ewellic.org>
Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no

2009-11-12 11:13 PM

To

<ietf-languages <at> iana.org>

cc

Subject

Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

 




This is just a reminder -- inspired by a false-alarm WatchThatPage
message I got today -- that ISO 639-3/RA will be reviewing the 2009
batch of change requests through December 15, and will issue a report,
probably in January, listing all the changes they have approved.

This will be the first time that the annual round of ISO 639-3 changes
will directly affect the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  In past years,
as part of the effort to keep draft-4645bis up to date, I kept track of
these changes myself.  Now, they will be a full part of the
ietf-languages change control process.  Each 639-3 change that affects
the Registry will require its own proposed record and registration form,
posted to this list for a two-week review period, and will have to be
submitted individually to IANA.  This is the process outlined in RFC
5646 and approved by the IETF and IESG.

Last year the RA approved 150 changes; the year before, 383.  This year,
there are 143 pending change requests to be considered.  That does not
mean the RA will necessarily approve them all, or that each approved
request will map 1-to-1 with a change in the Registry, but it would not
be unrealistic to assume 100 or more changes.

I just want to make sure that everyone is aware this workload is coming,
probably about two months from now, and that we don't treat it as some
sort of sudden, unexpected anomaly and propose ad-hoc rule changes to
work around it.  It is the way of our future, once a year.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages <at> http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Peter Constable | 14 Nov 11:26
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RE: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On
Behalf Of Doug Ewell

> I do plan to take advantage of this opportunity to argue against change request 2009-070.

Indeed!

Peter
Michael Everson | 14 Nov 12:38
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Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

On 14 Nov 2009, at 10:26, Peter Constable wrote:

> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On
Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> 
>> I do plan to take advantage of this opportunity to argue against change request 2009-070.
> 
> Indeed!

Which is what?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Gerard Meijssen | 14 Nov 12:40

Re: Reminder: ISO 639-3 changes are coming

Hoi,
http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/chg_detail.asp?id=2009-070&lang=axz
Thanks,
     Gerard

PS I agree that this is not really worth it.

2009/11/14 Michael Everson <everson <at> evertype.com>
On 14 Nov 2009, at 10:26, Peter Constable wrote:

> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell
>
>> I do plan to take advantage of this opportunity to argue against change request 2009-070.
>
> Indeed!

Which is what?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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