Victor | 15 Jun 16:50
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Valencian Language Tag registration request

LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
   1. Name of requester: Luis Sanmartín Ruiz
   2. E-mail address of requester: modernizacion <at> gva.es
   3. Record Requested: val

      Type: language
      Subtag: val
      Description: Valencian
      Description: Valencià
      Description: Valenciano
      Preferred-Value: val
      Suppress-Script: Latn

   4. Intended meaning of the subtag:
The language spoken in the Valencian Community region, located in the
east coast of Spain. It’s a coofficial language in the Valencian
Community where Spanish is also spoken.

   5. Reference to published description
      of the language (book or article):

* Gramàtica normativa valenciana (Valencian Grammar) ISBN: 978-84-482-4422-4

* European council, June the 13th, 2005,where it’s stated that every
language recognized by the Constitution of any country it is
recognized at the EU.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2005:148:0001:0002:EN:PDF

* Content and Language Integrated Learning (CLIL) at School in Europe,
pages 18, 19 and 69, where it recognizes Valencian as well as other
(Continue reading)

Phillips, Addison | 15 Jun 17:11
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RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Hi,

You can't request this subtag in this form: RFC 4646 only permits independent registration of language
subtags containing between five and eight characters and then, generally, only if the language has been
rejected by the maintainers of ISO 639.

A pending update of the RFC 4646 will broaden the list of languages to include ISO 639-3 codes. This won't
help your particular request for three reasons:

- ISO 639 (and thus this registry) already recognizes Valencian/Catalan with the subtag 'ca'. You need to
convince ISO 639 that Valencian is a separate language meriting its own code.
- The variant subtag 'valencia' is already registered (in this registry) as a way of indicating Valencian
(as a variety of 'ca').
- ISO 639-3 already assigns the code 'val' to the language Vehes, making it unavailable.

Finally, a note on your request: the "Preferred-Value" field would not be appropriate to include. That
field is used to indicate when a different subtag should be used instead of the one in the record.

Kind regards,

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
(Continue reading)

Gerard Meijssen | 15 Jun 19:03

Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Hoi,
When you request a new language, you should ask ISO. Furthermore the val code is already in use by the Vehes language.
Thanks,
      Gerard


2009/6/15 Victor <vmbenet <at> gmail.com>
LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
  1. Name of requester: Luis Sanmartín Ruiz
  2. E-mail address of requester: modernizacion <at> gva.es
  3. Record Requested: val

     Type: language
     Subtag: val
     Description: Valencian
     Description: Valencià
     Description: Valenciano
     Preferred-Value: val
     Suppress-Script: Latn


  4. Intended meaning of the subtag:
The language spoken in the Valencian Community region, located in the
east coast of Spain. It’s a coofficial language in the Valencian
Community where Spanish is also spoken.



  5. Reference to published description
     of the language (book or article):

* Gramàtica normativa valenciana (Valencian Grammar) ISBN: 978-84-482-4422-4

* European council, June the 13th, 2005,where it’s stated that every
language recognized by the Constitution of any country it is
recognized at the EU.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2005:148:0001:0002:EN:PDF

* Content and Language Integrated Learning (CLIL) at School in Europe,
pages 18, 19 and 69, where it recognizes Valencian as well as other
coofficial languages in Spain.
http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/ressources/eurydice/pdf/0_integral/071EN.pdf

* La flexió verbal, Enric Valor. ISBN: 978-84-7502-083-9

* Sanchis i Guarner, Manuel (1934, 1967). La llengua dels valencians.
Edicions 3i4, València 2005. ISBN 84-7502-082-8.

* Salvador i Gimeno, Carles (1951). Gramàtica valenciana.
Associació Cultural Lo Rat Penat. València 1995. ISBN 84-85211-71-5.

* Salvador i Gimeno, Carles (1963). Valencians i la llengua
Autóctona durant els segles XVI, XVII i XVIII. Institució Alfons el
Magnànim. València. ISBN 84-370-5334-X.

* Colomina i Castanyer, Jordi, (1995). Els valencians i la llengua
normativa. Textos universitaris. Alacant: Institut de Cultura "Juan
Gil-Albert". ISBN 84-7784-178-0.

* http://www.avl.gva.es/ Web de l'Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua

* http://www.racv.es/ Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana

* Diccionari Ortogràfic i de Pronunciació del Valencià, ISBN: 978-84-7890-041-1.

* Diccionari Valencià

* Cançoneret valencià de nadal, ISBN: 978-84-482-4530-6

* Acords de la Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua : 2001-2004, ISBN:
978-84-482-4074-5

* Orígenes del Reino de Valencia. Antonio Ubieto Arteta. ISBN 84-7013-154-0.

* http://dcvb.iecat.net/default.asp Diccionari català-valencià-balear

* http://www.edu.gva.es/polin/val/salt/apolin.htm Área de Política
Lingüística de la Generalitat Valenciana.

* Normes de Castelló. Eliseu Climent. ISBN: 84-7502-057-7

* Dictamen sobre els principis i criteris per a la defensa de la
denominació i l'entitat del valencià. ISBN: 978-84-482-4073-8

* Fills de la Morta-Viva : Apunts bio-bibliográfichs pera la historia
del renaixement literari llemosí. Constantí Llombart. ISBN:
978-84-482-4198-8.


6. Any other relevant information:

* Substantive Law 1/2006, 10th of April, about improvements in the
Substantive Law 5/1982, 1st of July of the Valencian Community Statute
of Autonomy. Article #6

1.- The local language in the Valencian Region is Valencian
2.- Valencian is a cooficial language in the Valencian Region as well
as Spanish is in the whole country. Everyone has the right to learn
it, use it and be tough in and about the Valencian language.
3.- The regional government will ensure a normal use of both languages
and will adopt the convenient measures to ensure the knowledge of both
languages.
[ ... ]
8.- The Valencian Language Academy is the institution governing the
Valencian Language.

* Llei d'Ús i Ensenyament del Valencià. Elaboració i desplegament (Law
of use and tough of Valencia Language) ISBN: 978-84-482-3654-0

_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages


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Michael Everson | 15 Jun 19:21
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Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

This is out of scope. I have no option but to reject it.

As an aside, by every linguistic criterion I know of, indeed,  
Valencian is an all-but-indistinguishable dialect of Catalan.

On 15 Jun 2009, at 15:50, Victor wrote:

> LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
>   1. Name of requester: Luis Sanmartín Ruiz
>   2. E-mail address of requester: modernizacion <at> gva.es
>   3. Record Requested: val
>
>      Type: language
>      Subtag: val
>      Description: Valencian
>      Description: Valencià
>      Description: Valenciano
>      Preferred-Value: val
>      Suppress-Script: Latn
>
>
>   4. Intended meaning of the subtag:
> The language spoken in the Valencian Community region, located in the
> east coast of Spain. It’s a coofficial language in the Valencian
> Community where Spanish is also spoken.
>
>
>
>   5. Reference to published description
>      of the language (book or article):
>
> * Gramàtica normativa valenciana (Valencian Grammar) ISBN:  
> 978-84-482-4422-4
>
> * European council, June the 13th, 2005,where it’s stated that every
> language recognized by the Constitution of any country it is
> recognized at the EU.
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2005:148:0001:0002:EN:PDF
>
> * Content and Language Integrated Learning (CLIL) at School in Europe,
> pages 18, 19 and 69, where it recognizes Valencian as well as other
> coofficial languages in Spain.
> http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/ressources/eurydice/pdf/0_integral/071EN.pdf
>
> * La flexió verbal, Enric Valor. ISBN: 978-84-7502-083-9
>
> * Sanchis i Guarner, Manuel (1934, 1967). La llengua dels valencians.
> Edicions 3i4, València 2005. ISBN 84-7502-082-8.
>
> * Salvador i Gimeno, Carles (1951). Gramàtica valenciana.
> Associació Cultural Lo Rat Penat. València 1995. ISBN 84-85211-71-5.
>
> * Salvador i Gimeno, Carles (1963). Valencians i la llengua
> Autóctona durant els segles XVI, XVII i XVIII. Institució Alfons el
> Magnànim. València. ISBN 84-370-5334-X.
>
> * Colomina i Castanyer, Jordi, (1995). Els valencians i la llengua
> normativa. Textos universitaris. Alacant: Institut de Cultura "Juan
> Gil-Albert". ISBN 84-7784-178-0.
>
> * http://www.avl.gva.es/ Web de l'Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua
>
> * http://www.racv.es/ Real Academia de Cultura Valenciana
>
> * Diccionari Ortogràfic i de Pronunciació del Valencià, ISBN:  
> 978-84-7890-041-1.
>
> * Diccionari Valencià
>
> * Cançoneret valencià de nadal, ISBN: 978-84-482-4530-6
>
> * Acords de la Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua : 2001-2004, ISBN:
> 978-84-482-4074-5
>
> * Orígenes del Reino de Valencia. Antonio Ubieto Arteta. ISBN  
> 84-7013-154-0.
>
> * http://dcvb.iecat.net/default.asp Diccionari català-valencià-balear
>
> * http://www.edu.gva.es/polin/val/salt/apolin.htm Área de Política
> Lingüística de la Generalitat Valenciana.
>
> * Normes de Castelló. Eliseu Climent. ISBN: 84-7502-057-7
>
> * Dictamen sobre els principis i criteris per a la defensa de la
> denominació i l'entitat del valencià. ISBN: 978-84-482-4073-8
>
> * Fills de la Morta-Viva : Apunts bio-bibliográfichs pera la historia
> del renaixement literari llemosí. Constantí Llombart. ISBN:
> 978-84-482-4198-8.
>
>
> 6. Any other relevant information:
>
> * Substantive Law 1/2006, 10th of April, about improvements in the
> Substantive Law 5/1982, 1st of July of the Valencian Community Statute
> of Autonomy. Article #6
>
> 1.- The local language in the Valencian Region is Valencian
> 2.- Valencian is a cooficial language in the Valencian Region as well
> as Spanish is in the whole country. Everyone has the right to learn
> it, use it and be tough in and about the Valencian language.
> 3.- The regional government will ensure a normal use of both languages
> and will adopt the convenient measures to ensure the knowledge of both
> languages.
> [ ... ]
> 8.- The Valencian Language Academy is the institution governing the
> Valencian Language.
>
> * Llei d'Ús i Ensenyament del Valencià. Elaboració i desplegament (Law
> of use and tough of Valencia Language) ISBN: 978-84-482-3654-0
> <val.txt>_______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
John Cowan | 15 Jun 20:54

Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Michael Everson scripsit:

> As an aside, by every linguistic criterion I know of, indeed,  
> Valencian is an all-but-indistinguishable dialect of Catalan.

Three useful facts:

1) The Valencian Academy of Language (AVL), the state body for the Valencian
language and its orthography, says that Valencian and Catalan are the
same language.

2) The AVL specifies a Valencian orthography distinct from the general
orthography of Catalan, so "Valencian" is an orthographic distinction.

3) In August of 2007, ISO 639-3/RA rejected the request for a separate
code unit for Valencian, so "talk to ISO first" is unnecessary.

--

-- 
And through this revolting graveyard of the universe the muffled, maddening
beating of drums, and thin, monotonous whine of blasphemous flutes from
inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond Time; the detestable pounding
and piping whereunto dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic
tenebrous ultimate gods --the blind, voiceless, mindless gargoyles whose soul
is Nyarlathotep. (Lovecraft)   John Cowan  cowan <at> ccil.org
Doug Ewell | 16 Jun 02:27
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Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Perhaps the most important point was mentioned by Addison:

> - The variant subtag 'valencia' is already registered (in this 
> registry) as a way of indicating Valencian (as a variety of 'ca').

In other words, if you really need to indicate "Valencian" as opposed to 
Catalan, you can write "ca-valencia".  This solution has been in place 
since March 2007.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

_______________________________________________
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CE Whitehead | 17 Jun 00:39
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Valencian Language Tag registration request



Hi.
 
As was the case with Romanian/Moldovian, it seems that documents translated into both Valencian and Catalan tend to be identical in both languages, so linguistically there is very little difference between the two languages.
 
Nevertheless, I do feel that the requester has the right to petition ISO 639 for a code for Valencian should the requestor wish to do so, though 'val' would not work, as Addison has pointed out. 
 
However, although having the code 'ca' stand for both languages may be a little problematic from a political standpoint, Addison Phillips has summarized the problems with having a separate code:
 
Phillips, Addison addison at amazon.com
Mon Jun 15 17:11:21 CEST 2009
> . . .
> - ISO 639 (and thus this registry) already recognizes Valencian/Catalan with the subtag > 'ca'. You need to convince ISO 639 that Valencian is a separate language meriting its
> own code.
> - The variant subtag 'valencia' is already registered (in this registry) as a way of
> indicating Valencian (as a variety of 'ca').
> - ISO 639-3 already assigns the code 'val' to the language Vehes, making it unavailable.
> . . .

 
Because of what Addison has said (above), it makes little sense to me to have a new subtag for the Valencian language, and I would not support the registration of a language subtag.  I think Valencian is better off being represented by the current two-letter code.
 
For the 'political side' of the Catalan-Valencian controversy I checked out several links:
 
1.
http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3175&Itemid=0

* * *
2.
http://www.101languages.net/catalan/valencian.html
 
"Conversely, many Valencians who advocate distinguishing the languages do so to resist a perceived Catalan nationalist agenda aimed at absorbing Valencian language and identity, and incorporating Valencians into a constructed nationality centered in Catalonia."
 
"The latest political controversy regarding Valencian occurred on the occasion of the drafting of the European Constitution in 2004. The Spanish government supplied the EU with translations of the text into Basque, Galician, Catalan, and Valencian, but the Catalan and Valencian versions were identical. While professing the unity of the Catalan language, the Spanish government claimed to be constitutionally bound to produce distinct Catalan and Valencian versions because the Statute of the Autonomous Land of Valencia refers to the language as Valencian. In practice, the Catalan, Valencian, and Balearic versions of the EU constitution are identical, although some compromises over spelling may have been involved in making them so."
 
* * *
3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian

"There is a current among some Valencians known as blaverism which claims that Valencian is an independent language from Catalan. These theories are usually supported by politicians rather than linguists. They are mostly based on disputing the origin of the language in Valencia."

 
 
Best,
 
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar <at> hotmail.com


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Doug Ewell | 17 Jun 04:04
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Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail dot com> wrote:

> As was the case with Romanian/Moldovian, it seems that documents 
> translated into both Valencian and Catalan tend to be identical in 
> both languages, so linguistically there is very little difference 
> between the two languages.

As was the case with Romanian/Moldovan, there is only one language, not 
two.

> Nevertheless, I do feel that the requester has the right to petition 
> ISO 639 for a code for Valencian should the requestor wish to do so, 
> though 'val' would not work, as Addison has pointed out.

One might benefit from reading John Cowan's note from a day ago:

> 3) In August of 2007, ISO 639-3/RA rejected the request for a separate 
> code unit for Valencian, so "talk to ISO first" is unnecessary.

It would be pointless to go back to the RA less than two years later 
with the same request and the same supporting information.  "Insanity: 
doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different 
results." - Einstein

> However, although having the code 'ca' stand for both languages may be 
> a little problematic from a political standpoint,

The political standpoint does not matter.  ISO 639 and the IETF Language 
Subtag Registry exist for the purpose of tagging and identifying content 
in human languages.  They do not exist for the purpose of settling 
political disputes or validating people's nationalistic identity.

The ISO 639 RAs have assigned two names to this language -- "Catalan; 
Valencian" -- an approach they have taken with other languages as well, 
including Spanish and Dutch.  That should be sufficient.

Under BCP 47, the language-variant combination "ca-valencia" is 
available to distinguish "Valencian" from "Catalan."  Whether the 
difference is one of dialect, orthography, vocabulary, or what have you, 
this is more than sufficient and no other solution is needed.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

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Kent Karlsson | 17 Jun 11:04
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Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request


Den 2009-06-17 04.04, skrev "Doug Ewell" <doug <at> ewellic.org>:

> The ISO 639 RAs have assigned two names to this language -- "Catalan;
>
Valencian" -- an approach they have taken with other languages as well,
>
including Spanish and Dutch.  That should be sufficient.

Which brings us to the question what 'vls' (included in the
registry update that soon, hopefully, will be approved) stands for.

Type: language
Subtag: vls
Description: Vlaams

Compare:
Type: language
Subtag: nl
Description: Dutch
Description: Flemish

Note that "Vlaams" is the Dutch word for "Flemish". There
*may* be a linguistic distinction to be made (such as
West Flemish (West-Vlaams) vs. East Flemish (Oost-Vlaams)).
But that is far from clear from the ISO 639-3 descriptions.

I'm not suggesting that ietf-languages debates this, it is
an issue for the ISO 639-3 registration authority.

    /kent k
Gerard Meijssen | 17 Jun 12:37

Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Hoi,
There is a difference between the literature of the Dutch and the Belgians. Given the prominence of libraries in the history of the ISO-639 I expect that this is an explanation for this.
Thanks,
     Gerard

2009/6/17 Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14 <at> comhem.se>

Den 2009-06-17 04.04, skrev "Doug Ewell" <doug <at> ewellic.org>:

> The ISO 639 RAs have assigned two names to this language -- "Catalan;
>
Valencian" -- an approach they have taken with other languages as well,
>
including Spanish and Dutch.  That should be sufficient.


Which brings us to the question what 'vls' (included in the
registry update that soon, hopefully, will be approved) stands for.

Type: language
Subtag: vls
Description: Vlaams

Compare:
Type: language
Subtag: nl
Description: Dutch
Description: Flemish

Note that "Vlaams" is the Dutch word for "Flemish". There
*may* be a linguistic distinction to be made (such as
West Flemish (West-Vlaams) vs. East Flemish (Oost-Vlaams)).
But that is far from clear from the ISO 639-3 descriptions.

I'm not suggesting that ietf-languages debates this, it is
an issue for the ISO 639-3 registration authority.

   /kent k


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