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John Cowan | 5 Sep 2007 01:35

Konkani Suppress-Script

Currently the Suppress-Script: field for Konkani is set to Deva.
I believe this should be removed on the following evidence from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkani_language#Scripts :

        Konkani is written in a number of scripts. Brahmi was originally
        used but fell into disuse. Devanagari is the official script
        for Konkani in Goa. Roman script is also popular in Goa . The
        Kannada script is used amongst the Konkani population of
        Karnataka. Malayalam script is used by the Konkani community,
        centered around the cities of Cochin and Kozhikode in Kerala
        state. Konkani Muslims in coastal Maharashtra and Bhatkal taluka
        of Karnataka use Arabic script to write Konkani.

There is a reference here to
http://www.india-seminar.com/2004/543/543%20madhavi%20sardesai.htm ,
which is specifically about Goan Konkani (treated as a separate language
by ISO 639-3 under the Konkani macrolanguage umbrella).  Devanagari may
be official in Goa, but it is not clear that that should be treated as
the dominant script for Konkani as a whole.

--

-- 
Even the best of friends cannot                 John Cowan
attend each others' funeral.                    cowan <at> ccil.org
        --Kehlog Albran, The Profit             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Mark Davis | 5 Sep 2007 02:34
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Re: Konkani Suppress-Script

While wikipedia is a convenient source of information, for anything important I never trust it without looking up the primary sources and making sure that they are authoritative. From looking over the article, it appears that you may be right, but I'd like to get some more substantiation so that we don't flip-flop on this. The one source is some random seminar paper, which may or may not be trustworthy.

Mark

On 9/4/07, John Cowan <cowan <at> ccil.org> wrote:
Currently the Suppress-Script: field for Konkani is set to Deva.
I believe this should be removed on the following evidence from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkani_language#Scripts :

        Konkani is written in a number of scripts. Brahmi was originally
        used but fell into disuse. Devanagari is the official script
        for Konkani in Goa. Roman script is also popular in Goa . The
        Kannada script is used amongst the Konkani population of
        Karnataka. Malayalam script is used by the Konkani community,
        centered around the cities of Cochin and Kozhikode in Kerala
        state. Konkani Muslims in coastal Maharashtra and Bhatkal taluka
        of Karnataka use Arabic script to write Konkani.

There is a reference here to
http://www.india-seminar.com/2004/543/543%20madhavi%20sardesai.htm ,
which is specifically about Goan Konkani (treated as a separate language
by ISO 639-3 under the Konkani macrolanguage umbrella).  Devanagari may
be official in Goa, but it is not clear that that should be treated as
the dominant script for Konkani as a whole.

--
Even the best of friends cannot                 John Cowan
attend each others' funeral.                    cowan <at> ccil.org
        --Kehlog Albran, The Profit             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
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Michael Everson | 5 Sep 2007 09:18
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Re: Konkani Suppress-Script

At 17:34 -0700 2007-09-04, Mark Davis wrote:
>While wikipedia is a convenient source of information, for anything 
>important I never trust it without looking up the primary sources 
>and making sure that they are authoritative. From looking over the 
>article, it appears that you may be right, but I'd like to get some 
>more substantiation so that we don't flip-flop on this. The one 
>source is some random seminar paper, which may or may not be 
>trustworthy.

I love it when Mark and I agree. You'd want better than the evidence 
that you presented, John.

Greetings to all from Java, with hopes that this list will be quiet 
until the end of September....
--

-- 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
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Debbie Garside | 5 Sep 2007 16:00
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RE: Konkani Suppress-Script

Daniels, P.T., Bright, W., 1996. The World's Writing Systems. New York:
Oxford University Press. P.372

An authoritative reference to the use of the Roman script for Konkani.

Best

Debbie Garside

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
> [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: 05 September 2007 00:35
> To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
> Subject: Konkani Suppress-Script
>
> Currently the Suppress-Script: field for Konkani is set to Deva.
> I believe this should be removed on the following evidence
> from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konkani_language#Scripts :
>
>         Konkani is written in a number of scripts. Brahmi was
> originally
>         used but fell into disuse. Devanagari is the official script
>         for Konkani in Goa. Roman script is also popular in Goa . The
>         Kannada script is used amongst the Konkani population of
>         Karnataka. Malayalam script is used by the Konkani community,
>         centered around the cities of Cochin and Kozhikode in Kerala
>         state. Konkani Muslims in coastal Maharashtra and
> Bhatkal taluka
>         of Karnataka use Arabic script to write Konkani.
>
> There is a reference here to
> http://www.india-seminar.com/2004/543/543%20madhavi%20sardesai
> .htm , which is specifically about Goan Konkani (treated as a
> separate language by ISO 639-3 under the Konkani
> macrolanguage umbrella).  Devanagari may be official in Goa,
> but it is not clear that that should be treated as the
> dominant script for Konkani as a whole.
>
> --
> Even the best of friends cannot                 John Cowan
> attend each others' funeral.                    cowan <at> ccil.org
>         --Kehlog Albran, The Profit
> http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>
>
>
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John Cowan | 5 Sep 2007 16:16

Re: Konkani Suppress-Script

Debbie Garside scripsit:

> Daniels, P.T., Bright, W., 1996. The World's Writing Systems. New York:
> Oxford University Press. P.372
> 
> An authoritative reference to the use of the Roman script for Konkani.

Well, I was going to present an impassioned piece of special pleading
about how the standards for removing Suppress-Script: should be low:
any fairly decent evidence that multiple scripts are in general
use ought to be exhibited.  But now I won't have to.

Thanks, Debbie.

--

-- 
First known example of political correctness:   John Cowan
After Nurhachi had united all the other         http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Jurchen tribes under the leadership of the      cowan <at> ccil.org
Manchus, his successor Abahai (1592-1643)
issued an order that the name Jurchen should       --S. Robert Ramsey,
be banned, and from then on, they were all           The Languages of China
to be called Manchus.
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Peter Constable | 5 Sep 2007 17:03
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RE: Konkani Suppress-Script

> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside

> Daniels, P.T., Bright, W., 1996. The World's Writing Systems. New York:
> Oxford University Press. P.372
>
> An authoritative reference to the use of the Roman script for Konkani.

The statement on that page is pretty vague. Could mean that a single village newspaper somewhere started
using Latin script but ten years on its died out. If that were the case, that wouldn't constitute a case to
remove suppress-script in my mind.

On the other hand, this is a little less vague and is relevant wrt suppress-script:

http://www.ciil.org/Main/Report/1.htm

Peter
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Debbie Garside | 5 Sep 2007 20:21
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RE: Konkani Suppress-Script

Peter wrote:

> The statement on that page is pretty vague. Could mean that a
> single village newspaper somewhere started using Latin script
> but ten years on its died out. If that were the case, that
> wouldn't constitute a case to remove suppress-script in my mind.

If that were the case I would have to agree.  However...

http://www.country-studies.com/india/linguistic-relations.html

This, seemingly, authoritative reference states:

"The fact that the Latin script is predominantly used for Konkani separates
it further from Marathi, which uses the Devanagari (see Glossary) script.
However, Konkani is also sometimes written in Devanagari and Kannada
scripts.

Best

Debbie Garside

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
> [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of
> Peter Constable
> Sent: 05 September 2007 16:04
> To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
> Subject: RE: Konkani Suppress-Script
>
> > From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> > bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside
>
> > Daniels, P.T., Bright, W., 1996. The World's Writing
> Systems. New York:
> > Oxford University Press. P.372
> >
> > An authoritative reference to the use of the Roman script
> for Konkani.
>
> The statement on that page is pretty vague. Could mean that a
> single village newspaper somewhere started using Latin script
> but ten years on its died out. If that were the case, that
> wouldn't constitute a case to remove suppress-script in my mind.
>
> On the other hand, this is a little less vague and is
> relevant wrt suppress-script:
>
> http://www.ciil.org/Main/Report/1.htm
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>
>
>
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Peter Constable | 5 Sep 2007 21:35
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RE: Konkani Suppress-Script

My point was, the statement on p. 372 is part of a high-level survey of Indic scripts with only passing
reference to Konkani, making undocumented statements wrt that language. As such, it's not a whole lot
more actionable wrt suppress-script, IMO, than any comments on Wikipedia.

The page you just cited also has undocumented info regarding Konkani, but it does give rather more specific
details with, as you say, an "authoritative" feel. That provides a more actionable case for suppress-script.

Especially when combined with other good evidence indicating usage of Devanagari and Kannada.

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:21 AM
> To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
> Subject: RE: Konkani Suppress-Script
>
> Peter wrote:
>
> > The statement on that page is pretty vague. Could mean that a
> > single village newspaper somewhere started using Latin script
> > but ten years on its died out. If that were the case, that
> > wouldn't constitute a case to remove suppress-script in my mind.
>
> If that were the case I would have to agree.  However...
>
> http://www.country-studies.com/india/linguistic-relations.html
>
> This, seemingly, authoritative reference states:
>
> "The fact that the Latin script is predominantly used for Konkani
> separates
> it further from Marathi, which uses the Devanagari (see Glossary)
> script.
> However, Konkani is also sometimes written in Devanagari and Kannada
> scripts.
>
> Best
>
> Debbie Garside
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
> > [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of
> > Peter Constable
> > Sent: 05 September 2007 16:04
> > To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
> > Subject: RE: Konkani Suppress-Script
> >
> > > From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> > > bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside
> >
> > > Daniels, P.T., Bright, W., 1996. The World's Writing
> > Systems. New York:
> > > Oxford University Press. P.372
> > >
> > > An authoritative reference to the use of the Roman script
> > for Konkani.
> >
> > The statement on that page is pretty vague. Could mean that a
> > single village newspaper somewhere started using Latin script
> > but ten years on its died out. If that were the case, that
> > wouldn't constitute a case to remove suppress-script in my mind.
> >
> > On the other hand, this is a little less vague and is
> > relevant wrt suppress-script:
> >
> > http://www.ciil.org/Main/Report/1.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ietf-languages mailing list
> > Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
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John Cowan | 5 Sep 2007 21:40

Re: Konkani Suppress-Script

Debbie Garside scripsit:

> "The fact that the Latin script is predominantly used for Konkani
> separates it further from Marathi, which uses the Devanagari (see
> Glossary) script.  However, Konkani is also sometimes written in
> Devanagari and Kannada scripts.

I think it's time for that special pleading now, viz:

The fact that we have allegedly authoritative statements pointing in
different directions for the script in use is pretty good evidence that
there is no single dominant script.  Even non-authoritative statements
claiming that most Hindi is written in Latin, or that most English is
written in Devanagari, are not to be found.

Formal proposal follows.

--

-- 
Possession is said to be nine points of the law,                John Cowan
but that's not saying how many points the law might have.       cowan <at> ccil.org
        --Thomas A. Cowan (law professor and my father)
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Michael Everson | 6 Sep 2007 03:04
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Re: Konkani Suppress-Script

At 15:40 -0400 2007-09-05, John Cowan wrote:

>The fact that we have allegedly authoritative statements pointing in
>different directions for the script in use is pretty good evidence that
>there is no single dominant script.  Even non-authoritative statements
>claiming that most Hindi is written in Latin, or that most English is
>written in Devanagari, are not to be found.
>
>Formal proposal follows.

I have an idea. Why not do some research and get actual text samples 
between now and 25 September?
--

-- 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
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