Are we reading the same Ethnologue page?
Ethnologue seems to include the Austrian forms and mentions that certain
dialects within this language family may not be intelligible to speakers
of other dialects.
I'm not trying to be difficult --
today :) -- and certainly appreciate your previous help in sorting out
these issues, but I have circulated the codes gsw-CH and gsw-AT to a fairly
wide audience based on assumptions that seem to be fairly well-documented
on Ethnologue, my application, ISO's approval, and various other resources
that lump these regional dialects together. Does 639-3 should have a macrolanguage
for this? If not, should it?
I'd appreciate it if you could review
your notes before acting on this suggested change.
Best regards,
Karen
| Peter Constable <petercon <at> microsoft.com>
11/30/2006 05:34 PM
|
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To
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<Karen_Broome <at> spe.sony.com>
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cc
|
Håvard Hjulstad <HHj <at> standard.no>,
<ietf-languages <at> iana.org>, <ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no>,
<iso639 <at> dkuug.dk>, <iso639-2 <at> loc.gov>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory
Committee <ISOJAC <at> loc.gov>, LTRU Working Group <ltru <at> ietf.org>,
Mark Davis <mark.davis <at> icu-project.org>, <zaiitov <at> gmail.com>
|
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Subject
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RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German |
|
I’ll have to check email to
be sure, but my recollection was that I had suggested to you that the category
that was already in the draft table for 639-3 might meet your need, and
that category was the one coded “gsw” with semantics defined in Ethnologue.
Definitely the JAC was incorporating into part 2 the item in the draft
code table for part 3; I believe that all along the JAC understood that
to have the semantics of “Swiss German” (or “Schwyzerdütsch”) – certainly
I did, but again I’d need to review discussions to be more certain.
Peter
From: Karen_Broome <at> spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome <at> spe.sony.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:51 PM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Håvard Hjulstad; ietf-languages <at> iana.org; ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no;
iso639 <at> dkuug.dk; iso639-2 <at> loc.gov; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU
Working Group; Mark Davis; zaiitov <at> gmail.com
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
Peter,
I'm not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO application.
The application draws attention to other regions where Alemanic dialects
can be found (see: "addinfo" section). I believe the French name
typically indicates a broader range of dialects as well:
> > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00
> >
> > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic
> > lang_in_fre = alémanique
> > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.ethnologue.com
> > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch,
> Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch
> > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, http://www.ethnologue.com,
http://www.wikipedia.com
> > trans_lit =
> > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective
> Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion Internationale
> Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)
> >
> > http://www.agicoa.org
> > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population
total all
> countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central, northeast,
> and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany,
> Liechtenstein.
Regards,
Karen Broome
Metadata Systems Designer
Sony Pictures Entertainment
310.244.4384
Peter Constable <petercon <at> microsoft.com>
Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
11/30/2006 02:59 PM
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To
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Mark Davis <mark.davis <at> icu-project.org>
|
|
cc
|
LTRU Working Group <ltru <at> ietf.org>,
zaiitov <at> gmail.com, iso639-2 <at> loc.gov, Håvard Hjulstad <HHj <at> standard.no>,
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <ISOJAC <at> loc.gov>, ietf-languages <at> iana.org,
iso639 <at> dkuug.dk
|
|
Subject
|
RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German |
|
I can tell you that the intent of “gsw” is specifically Swiss German,
and that the assumption of having “Alemanic” listed as a name is that
some people use that label to refer to specifically to Swiss German. If
the latter assumption is incorrect (which appears to be what Mark is saying,
then that is a change that the JAC should consider.
But if Martin’s comment is the
supporting evidence, then I still find Martin’s comment to be unclear.
It’s clear to me what Mark is saying; it’s not clear to me if Martin
is saying the same thing.
Peter Constable
From: mark.edward.davis <at> gmail.com
[mailto:mark.edward.davis <at> gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM
To: Peter Constable
Cc: Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2 <at> loc.gov; LTRU Working Group; zaiitov <at> gmail.com;
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; ietf-languages <at> iana.org; iso639 <at> dkuug.dk
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
Alemanic refers to a broader group
of dialects than "Swiss German" (aka Schwyzertuesch) does. So
listing them as it does is problematic; it's like listing
ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic
Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be
Alemanic (including Swiss German)
// which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to
or
Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)
// which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to
But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code.
Mark
On 11/30/06, Peter Constable
<petercon <at> microsoft.com>
wrote:
Martin's comment is somewhat
vague: varieties spoken on either side of the border are very similar,
et "as soon as you cross the border it's very clearly no longer Swiss
German". Does that mean that what is spoken across the border is clearly
a different language, or that the label "Swiss German" is clearly
not used?
Peter
From: Mark Davis [mailto:mark.davis <at> icu-project.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM
To: Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2 <at> loc.gov
Cc: LTRU Working Group; zaiitov <at> gmail.com;
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; ietf-languages <at> iana.org;
iso639 <at> dkuug.dk
Subject: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
ISO 639-2 (on http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php)
lists the following:
gsw Alemani; Swiss German
alémanique
However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German
is not the same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but there
are other types that are not the same as Swiss German.
Quoting Martin Duerst:
"Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not
the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in
the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as
soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss
German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that
both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like
"Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."
Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people?
Mark Davis
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