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Peter Constable | 1 Sep 03:27
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RE: Request for variant subtag: western

Mark:

I'm guessing that the need driving this is that localization of products for Armenian requires
specifically two sets of resources: one for speakers of "Eastern Armenian" and the other for the diaspora.

Is that the case?


Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:29 PM
> To: Michael Everson
> Cc: IETF Languages Discussion
> Subject: Re: Request for variant subtag: western
> 
> Each language may have a huge number of variant dialects, with various
> degrees of precision. Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian are the
> ones we actually need, and therefore in accordance with the procedures
> have proposed the first and will propose the second.
> 
> As I said before, simply because there are other possible variant tags
> is not grounds for refusal to register according to the procedures.
> 
> That is the normal name for these dialects, as seen in many instances,
> including the Ethnologue, which you yourself pointed to. Again, simply
> because it is the normal -- and understandable -- name does not
> disqualify it from registration -- one does not always have to strive
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Mark Davis | 1 Sep 03:32
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Re: Request for variant subtag: western

Yes.

On 8/31/06, Peter Constable <petercon <at> microsoft.com> wrote:
> Mark:
>
> I'm guessing that the need driving this is that localization of products for Armenian requires
specifically two sets of resources: one for speakers of "Eastern Armenian" and the other for the diaspora.
>
> Is that the case?
>
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-
> > bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
> > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:29 PM
> > To: Michael Everson
> > Cc: IETF Languages Discussion
> > Subject: Re: Request for variant subtag: western
> >
> > Each language may have a huge number of variant dialects, with various
> > degrees of precision. Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian are the
> > ones we actually need, and therefore in accordance with the procedures
> > have proposed the first and will propose the second.
> >
> > As I said before, simply because there are other possible variant tags
> > is not grounds for refusal to register according to the procedures.
> >
> > That is the normal name for these dialects, as seen in many instances,
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Frank Ellermann | 1 Sep 14:48
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Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

Don Osborn wrote:

> 1) If the subtags are specific to the Armenian language, why
> are they in English?

It's required to be 5..8 ASCII letters or digits (or 4 if it 
starts with a digit).  One transliteration (I hope that's the
correct term, please correct me) of the Armenian word for
"western" has 10 characters including an apostrophe.  The
word for "west" would fit.  I forgot the details for "eastern".
IMHO these two variant subtags should be consistent.

Frank
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Michael Everson | 1 Sep 15:38
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Re: Request for variant subtag: western

At 21:13 +0100 2006-08-31, Michael Everson wrote:
>hy-arevemda could be used for Western Armenian

arevemda has 8 characters

>hy-arevela could be used for Eastern Armenian

arevela has 7 characters

--

-- 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
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Frank Ellermann | 1 Sep 16:11
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Re: Request for variant subtag: western

Michael Everson wrote:

> arevemda has 8 characters

Yes, the word I found was "arevm'tian" (or "arevmutk" for west)
Only 2 Google hits for "arevmda", no hit at all for "arevemda".

Frank
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Mark Davis | 1 Sep 17:42
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Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

Just because subtags *designate* a particuarly entity, doesn't mean
they have to be written "in" that entity. The character names in ISO
10646 and Unicode illustrate that point: just one of thousands of
examples is U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR: the words "ARABIC", "DATA"
and "SEPARATOR" are not in Arabic.

Mark

On 9/1/06, Frank Ellermann <nobody <at> xyzzy.claranet.de> wrote:
> Don Osborn wrote:
>
> > 1) If the subtags are specific to the Armenian language, why
> > are they in English?
>
> It's required to be 5..8 ASCII letters or digits (or 4 if it
> starts with a digit).  One transliteration (I hope that's the
> correct term, please correct me) of the Armenian word for
> "western" has 10 characters including an apostrophe.  The
> word for "west" would fit.  I forgot the details for "eastern".
> IMHO these two variant subtags should be consistent.
>
> Frank
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf-languages mailing list
> Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>
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Michael Everson | 1 Sep 17:54
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Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

At 08:42 -0700 2006-09-01, Mark Davis wrote:
>Just because subtags *designate* a particuarly entity, doesn't mean
>they have to be written "in" that entity. The character names in ISO
>10646 and Unicode illustrate that point: just one of thousands of
>examples is U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR: the words "ARABIC", "DATA"
>and "SEPARATOR" are not in Arabic.

That argument doesn't take you very far, given BYZANTINE MUSICAL 
SYMBOL DIESIS APLI DYO DODEKATA.
--

-- 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
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Don Osborn | 1 Sep 18:03

RE: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

Hi Mark, I think that if there's a difference it might be: (1) that a character in a script might be used in more
than one language, and to switch in and out of languages in a list of descriptors for characters could be
problematic; and (2) more importantly the user of a tag for a particular language would be expected to be
familiar with a tag/designation in that language (or recognizably abbreviated or transcribed from that
language). 

Just exploring what this means or might mean. Personally I have no stake in this, but wonder about the
principle and precedent.

Here's another angle. If Armenian subtags are used in this case, will the choice facilitate or prejudice /
lead to problems in later choice of alpha-4 tags for these subdivisions of Armenian in ISO-639-6? But
maybe that's looking ahead too far...

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no] On
Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:43 AM
To: Frank Ellermann
Cc: ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

Just because subtags *designate* a particuarly entity, doesn't mean they have to be written "in" that
entity. The character names in ISO
10646 and Unicode illustrate that point: just one of thousands of examples is U+060D ARABIC DATE
SEPARATOR: the words "ARABIC", "DATA"
and "SEPARATOR" are not in Arabic.

Mark
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Frank Ellermann | 1 Sep 18:28
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Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

Mark Davis wrote:

> Just because subtags *designate* a particuarly entity,
> doesn't mean they have to be written "in" that entity.

Sure, and nobody said this.  My point in reply to Don was
that I'd prefer it if you use the same approach for both
variants.  That could be "western" and "eastern", but the
enthusiasm for such (apparently) generic tags is limited.

Or "arevemda" and "arevela" as proposed by Michael, but I
can't tell where he found "arevemda".  Trying to check it
I stumbled over two hits for "arevmda" (actually a typo 
in my Google query).  If the "western" community would
intuitively know what "arevemda" or "arevmda" mean that
could be better than your original proposal.

Really, I can't judge it.  My gut feeling was to look for
a better alternative, but "arevm'tian" isn't allowed.  If
that's the last word you're forced to stick to "western",
but maybe the "arev[e]mda" is also acceptable for you (?)

Frank
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Addison Phillips | 1 Sep 18:28
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Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM: Eastern Armenian

> 
> That argument doesn't take you very far, given BYZANTINE MUSICAL SYMBOL 
> DIESIS APLI DYO DODEKATA.

I think the argument about the form of the subtag is not very useful in 
its present form. With proposals for "eastern" and "western", the issue 
we face is, in my opinion, quite important and should be dealt with 
directly:

1. We have historical precedent for subtags restricted to a specific 
dialect. Witnesss 'nedis' and 'rozaj' in the current registry.

2. We do not have a history of registering "generic" subtags. Although 
'eastern' and 'western' would initially indicate Armenian dialects, it 
is quite clear that these subtags could have additional Prefix fields 
added which would indicate other, unrelated, dialects of other languages.

It seems clear to me that there are distinct entities of some sort that 
Mark needs to tag. The question before us is whether we should expand on 
precedent and register semi-generic subtags or continue the existing 
practice of registering very specific subtags for very specific purposes.

Personally, I do not support truly generic subtags ('eastern' with no 
Prefix at all), since I think those subtags would lead to undesirable 
tag choices and confusion about tag choice.

I therefore think that, given current practice, we should not register 
'eastern' and 'western' at this time, but we should register subtags 
(perhaps Michael's suggested ones) with the "same meaning" to meet 
Mark's needs.
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