Debbie Garside | 1 Jun 11:20 2004
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RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

Addison
 
LS 639 (proposed as ISO 639-6 - Aug 2004) deals very well with language varieties - written and spoken (signed, audio and visual to be included).  Anyone interested in the development of this new standard may like to read the paper/workshop presented at LREC in Lisbon in order to see exactly what is being proposed.  Visit www.linguasphere.com - all comments and critisism most welcome at this stage of development.  Please feel free to sign up for the forum - although it has only just been created.
 
Debbie
-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Addison Phillips [wM]
Sent: 21 May 2004 20:55
To: Mark E. Shoulson
Cc: havard <at> hjulstad.com; 'Anthony Hoang'; ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
Subject: RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

Mark,
 
Read the quoted sentence carefully. I did not use an absolute on purpose.
 
ISO 639 is good at identifying languages, but there are many cases in which it is not sufficient enough to identify content narrowly. This is why we have RFC 3066 and why RFC 3066 is used prevalently in XML formats to indicate content language and to select content.
 
The canonical example is 'zh', which identifies Chinese. Chinese comes in two written varieties, Simplified and Traditional, which are (even if you consider them to be mutually intelligible), not suitable for mixing and which should not be swapped one-for-the-other. The tags 'zh-Hant' and 'zh-Hans' identify this directly and the tags 'zh-TW' and 'zh-CN' have been used historically to to imply the separation.
 
There are other variations that require regional or other separation, such as the various German or Spanish variations, etc., in which RFC 3066 makes a better choice.
 
Addison
 

Addison P. Phillips
Director, Globalization Architecture
webMethods | Delivering Global Business Visibility
http://www.webMethods.com
Chair, W3C Internationalization (I18N) Working Group
Chair, W3C-I18N-WG, Web Services Task Force
http://www.w3.org/International

Internationalization is an architecture.
It is not a feature.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark E. Shoulson [mailto:mark <at> kli.org]
Sent: 2004年5月21日 11:47
To: aphillips <at> webmethods.com
Cc: havard <at> hjulstad.com; 'Anthony Hoang'; ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
Subject: Re: Question on ISO-639:1988

Addison Phillips [wM] wrote:
Dear Anthony,
 
Not to intrude, but ISO639 may not provide the best mechanism for tagging content language, especially in XML.
If ISO639 isn't a good way to tag content language, then why is it there at all?  What else does it tag?

~mark
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Debbie Garside | 1 Jun 13:22 2004
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RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

Hi Peter

>>Thus, for purposes of RFC 3066, Chinese in simplified characters and
Chinese in traditional characters are two different things; and English with
US spelling and English with UK spelling are two different things. For XML
content, such distinctions are important.

The proposed ISO 639-6 deals with language variations in the same way as RFC
3066 albeit by using unique alpha4 code.

>>But ISO 639 does not make such distinctions.

But it is in the pipeline... please read the papers as presented in Lisbon.

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Peter
Constable
Sent: 26 May 2004 00:01
To: ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
Subject: RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

>> If ISO639 isn't a good way to tag content language, then why is it there
at
>> all?  What else does it tag?

> ISO 639 is good at identifying languages, but there are many cases in
which it is not
> sufficient enough to identify content narrowly.

At issue here are two different senses of the term “language”: ISO 639 uses
language in a narrow sense, meaning a linguistic variety. Possibly spoken,
possibly written, but all that is distinguished is the linguistic variety.

RFC 3066 uses “language” in a derivative sense that encompasses both
dialectal variations and also representations of linguistic information, in
particular, written forms. Thus, for purposes of RFC 3066, Chinese in
simplified characters and Chinese in traditional characters are two
different things; and English with US spelling and English with UK spelling
are two different things. For XML content, such distinctions are important.
But ISO 639 does not make such distinctions.

Is ISO 639 of any use? Absolutely. It is a building block on which RFC 3066
is built, and there are other usage contexts in which differences related to
dialect or written form are not relevant.

Peter

Peter Constable
Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies
Microsoft Windows Division

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Michael Everson | 1 Jun 14:03 2004

RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

At 10:20 +0100 2004-06-01, Debbie Garside wrote:

>LS 639 (proposed as ISO 639-6 - Aug 2004) deals very well with 
>language varieties - written and spoken (signed, audio and visual to 
>be included).  Anyone interested in the development of this new 
>standard may like to read the paper/workshop presented at LREC in 
>Lisbon in order to see exactly what is being proposed.  Visit 
><http://www.linguasphere.com>www.linguasphere.com - all comments and 
>critisism most welcome at this stage of development.  Please feel 
>free to sign up for the forum - although it has only just been 
>created.

My opposition to ISO 639-6, being based on a commercial product that 
I still have not seen (despite promises) remains unchanged.
--

-- 
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
Debbie Garside | 1 Jun 15:30 2004
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RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

:-))  Sorry Michael... it is in process and formed part of my list of things
to do on my return from Lisbon... as you were in New York when I was in
Dublin in May... am again due in Dublin sometme in June and will endeavour
to deliver it personally (as also there has been a postal strike in Dublin).

As each zone becomes available (subject to our strict quality assurance
procedures) they will be posted on the Linguasphere web site for all to
comment on.  Currently there are two zones (out of 100) published on the
site, Mandic and Songhaic, albeit in a very raw state at the moment as the
site/database are still being developed.

With regard to "commercial product" ISO 639-6 will be available as freely as
any other standards are and is based on 50 years of research that culminated
in the publication of the Linguasphere Register in 2000.  It cannot be
realistically associated with commercial products (well not yet anyway but
we are working on ways of funding the continued research).

And... ISO 639-3 is based on SILs Ethnologue which is also available for
purchase in the same way as the Linguasphere Register.

Personally, I have been working on this project/product for nearly 3 years
and am as yet totally unpaid - indeed I have used considerable resources
from my own private (very small) business in supporting the creation of this
International Standard.  Ideas on how to fund the further development of
this standard will be gratefully received (although we have a few in mind as
you know).

Best wishes

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Michael
Everson
Sent: 01 June 2004 13:03
To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
Subject: RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

At 10:20 +0100 2004-06-01, Debbie Garside wrote:

>LS 639 (proposed as ISO 639-6 - Aug 2004) deals very well with
>language varieties - written and spoken (signed, audio and visual to
>be included).  Anyone interested in the development of this new
>standard may like to read the paper/workshop presented at LREC in
>Lisbon in order to see exactly what is being proposed.  Visit
><http://www.linguasphere.com>www.linguasphere.com - all comments and
>critisism most welcome at this stage of development.  Please feel
>free to sign up for the forum - although it has only just been
>created.

My opposition to ISO 639-6, being based on a commercial product that
I still have not seen (despite promises) remains unchanged.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Michael Everson | 1 Jun 15:38 2004

RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

At 14:30 +0100 2004-06-01, Debbie Garside wrote:
>:-))  Sorry Michael... it is in process and formed part of my list of things
>to do on my return from Lisbon... as you were in New York when I was in
>Dublin in May... am again due in Dublin sometme in June and will endeavour
>to deliver it personally (as also there has been a postal strike in Dublin).

I will be in Canada for the second half of June. The postal strike 
lasted a week and has been over for a long time.

I looked at the description of Irish that is or was on the 
Linguasphere website once, and it divided things up so much that I 
find it hard to see a use for it.
--

-- 
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
Michael Everson | 1 Jun 15:41 2004

I approve the registration of sl-nedis (Nadiza Slovene)

LANGUAGE TAG REGISTRATION FORM

Name of requester          : Han Steenwijk
E-mail address of requester: han.steenwijk <at> unipd.it
Tag to be registered       : sl-nedis

English name of language   : Natisone dialect, Nadiza dialect

Native name of language (transcribed into ASCII):
Nadiza name: nediski (adjective).
Slovene names: nadiski (adjective); nadiski dialekt, nadisko narecje (nominal
phrases).

References to published description of the language (book or article):

Baudouin de Courtenay, Jan. Materiali per la dialettologia e l'etnografia slava
meridionale IV: Testi popolari in prosa e versi raccolti in Val Natisone nel
1873/Materiali za juznoslovansko dialektologijo in etnografijo IV: Ljudska
besedila v prozi in verzih, zbrana v Nadiskih dolinah leta 1873. Edited by
Liliana Spinozzi Monai. Trieste/Trst - S.Pietro al Natisone/Speter Slovencev:
Editoriale Stampa Triestina/Zaloznistvo trzaskega tiska - Centro 
Studi/Studijski
center "Nediza", 1988.

Logar, Tine. "Prispevek k poznavanju nadiskega dialekta v Italii". Zbornik
Matice srpske za filologiju i lingvistiku 9, 1966. pp. 73-75.

Podrecca, Pietro & Clignon, Luigi. Andohtljivi poslusavci/Devoti ascoltatori:
Pridige v slovenskem narecju Nadiskih dolin 1850-1930/Prediche nel dialetto
sloveno delle Valli del Natisone. Edited by Giorgio Banchig & Riccardo Ruttar.
Cedad/Cividale del Friuli: Zdruzenje/Associazione "Don Eugenio 
Blanchini", 2002.

Ramovs, Fran. "Nadiski dialekt". Historicna gramatika slovenskega jezika VII:
Dialekti. Ljubljana: Uciteljska tiskarna, 1935. pp. 56-58.

Rigoni, Simona & Salvino, Stefania. Vocabolarietto italiano - natisoniano.
Edited by Anton M. Raffo. S.Leonardo: Pro Clastra, 1999.

Any other relevant information:
The Slovene dialect of the Natisone valley is spoken in numerous 
villages to the
North and East of Cividale del Friuli (Udine, Italy). Sizable bodies of written
texts exist, mainly sermons (older period) or newspaper articles (contemporary
period).
Michael Everson | 1 Jun 15:47 2004

Re: Status on es-americas

LANGUAGE TAG REGISTRATION FORM

Name of requester          : Youngmin Radochonski
E-mail address of requester: youngmin.radochonski <at> sun.com
Tag to be registered       : es-americas
English name of language   : Latin American Spanish
Native name of language (transcribed into ASCII): espanol de America Latina

Reference to published description of the language (book or article):

Any other relevant information:

This tag is intended for use on content that has been tailored for 
Spanish audiences throughout Latin America. It is not a collection 
for all Latin American Spanish varieties; it merely indicates that 
the author made choices in vocabulary, grammar, spelling, etc. that 
would make the content reasonably acceptable to speakers of most or 
all  Latin American Spanish varieties. (This tag does not imply any 
further details regarding what those choices may have been, however.)

This tag is intended primarily for cataloguing of localized content 
and resources, rather than for specifying language preference on 
retrieval. Ideally, a system should be able to deliver content 
labelled with this tag in response to requests for any specific Latin 
American Spanish variety, including but not limited to the following:

es-AR, es-BO, es-CL, es-CO, es-CR, es-CU, es-DO, es-EC, es-FK, es-GT, 
es-HN, es-MX, es-NI, es-PA, es-PE, es-PR, es-PY, es-SV, es-UY, es-VE.

Of course, systems can also be implemented to offer this tag as a 
user-preference option, and a server should deliver content labelled 
with this tag when requested for the same. On the other hand, it is 
not valid to assume that a request for "es-americas" can be serviced 
by returning content labelled as es-AR, or es-BO, es-CL, etc.

It would be appropriate to deliver content labelled with this tag in 
response to the more generic request, "es" (cf. section 2.5 of RFC 
3066).
Michael Everson | 1 Jun 15:49 2004

I approve the registration of es-americas (Latin American Spanish)

LANGUAGE TAG REGISTRATION FORM

Name of requester          : Youngmin Radochonski
E-mail address of requester: youngmin.radochonski <at> sun.com
Tag to be registered       : es-americas
English name of language   : Latin American Spanish
Native name of language (transcribed into ASCII): espanol de America Latina

Reference to published description of the language (book or article):

Any other relevant information:

This tag is intended for use on content that has been tailored for 
Spanish audiences throughout Latin America. It is not a collection 
for all Latin American Spanish varieties; it merely indicates that 
the author made choices in vocabulary, grammar, spelling, etc. that 
would make the content reasonably acceptable to speakers of most or 
all  Latin American Spanish varieties. (This tag does not imply any 
further details regarding what those choices may have been, however.)

This tag is intended primarily for cataloguing of localized content 
and resources, rather than for specifying language preference on 
retrieval. Ideally, a system should be able to deliver content 
labelled with this tag in response to requests for any specific Latin 
American Spanish variety, including but not limited to the following:

es-AR, es-BO, es-CL, es-CO, es-CR, es-CU, es-DO, es-EC, es-FK, es-GT, 
es-HN, es-MX, es-NI, es-PA, es-PE, es-PR, es-PY, es-SV, es-UY, es-VE.

Of course, systems can also be implemented to offer this tag as a 
user-preference option, and a server should deliver content labelled 
with this tag when requested for the same. On the other hand, it is 
not valid to assume that a request for "es-americas" can be serviced 
by returning content labelled as es-AR, or es-BO, es-CL, etc.

It would be appropriate to deliver content labelled with this tag in 
response to the more generic request, "es" (cf. section 2.5 of RFC 
3066).
Debbie Garside | 1 Jun 15:54 2004
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RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

>>I will be in Canada for the second half of June. The postal strike
>>lasted a week and has been over for a long time.

Point taken... although it took quite a long time to get the post going
again... will arrange for a copy to be posted forthwith...

>>I looked at the description of Irish that is or was on the
>>Linguasphere website once, and it divided things up so much that I
>>find it hard to see a use for it.

There are many uses including cataloguing etc. and these uses will become
more apparent as we start to look more at mobile technologies and the
cataloguing for spoken/audio/signed/written media.

But really, from my own point of view, it is about looking at what we might
require from a system in the future and allowing for ALL eventualities even
if their strict uses are not yet apparent.

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Michael
Everson
Sent: 01 June 2004 14:38
To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
Subject: RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

At 14:30 +0100 2004-06-01, Debbie Garside wrote:
>:-))  Sorry Michael... it is in process and formed part of my list of
things
>to do on my return from Lisbon... as you were in New York when I was in
>Dublin in May... am again due in Dublin sometme in June and will endeavour
>to deliver it personally (as also there has been a postal strike in
Dublin).

I will be in Canada for the second half of June. The postal strike
lasted a week and has been over for a long time.

I looked at the description of Irish that is or was on the
Linguasphere website once, and it divided things up so much that I
find it hard to see a use for it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Debbie Garside | 1 Jun 16:08 2004
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RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

>I looked at the description of Irish that is or was on the
>Linguasphere website once, and it divided things up so much that I
>find it hard to see a use for it.

Also, that is the reason for the family of 639 standards. If you don't need
the granularity offered by ISO 639-6 use 639-3/2/1 (and 5) as there is
complete mapping between them which means you can start with 639-1 but
expand to use 639-6 if you find it necessary.

It is my opinion that most people will use 639-1 (alpha2) or 639-3 (alpha3)
but that should not mean we do not cater for those that need 639-6 (alpha4)
level of langtags (as the XML community obviously do).

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces <at> alvestrand.no]On Behalf Of Michael
Everson
Sent: 01 June 2004 14:38
To: ietf-languages <at> iana.org
Subject: RE: Question on ISO-639:1988

At 14:30 +0100 2004-06-01, Debbie Garside wrote:
>:-))  Sorry Michael... it is in process and formed part of my list of
things
>to do on my return from Lisbon... as you were in New York when I was in
>Dublin in May... am again due in Dublin sometme in June and will endeavour
>to deliver it personally (as also there has been a postal strike in
Dublin).

I will be in Canada for the second half of June. The postal strike
lasted a week and has been over for a long time.

I looked at the description of Irish that is or was on the
Linguasphere website once, and it divided things up so much that I
find it hard to see a use for it.
--
Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
_______________________________________________
Ietf-languages mailing list
Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages

Gmane