Doug Ewell | 9 Feb 14:37
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Re: Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote: > I can approve both. In fact, I did, and people yelled at me. > I can approve neither. Will anyone yell at me? > I can do what John wants, since he's the only one who has got off the > fence and given an actual opinion.
Oh, I've got an opinion; it's the same as John's. I was trying to present the issue, which we have not faced before and which is not explicitly called out in BCP 47, in a neutral and unbiased way. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 9 Feb 03:52
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Re: Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote: > I am rather annoyed, Doug, that you have not responded to what I > actually said, but instead launched into a discussion about Low Saxon.
I didn't intend to bring up a red herring, but rather to point out that we are in a rather sticky situation over these two macrolanguages, and that similar RA actions in the future (like Low Saxon, hypothetically) could lead to even more stickiness for us. I am glad Peter has entered the discussion and hope enough light can now be shed on the whole affair that we can bring it to resolution. The subtags related to RA actions on Latvian and Bontok languages can wait until then; there are plenty of others we can examine in the meantime. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 8 Feb 15:00
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Re: Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote: > Note that the notion of *extlangs* is a quirk. It was the result of a > compromise in LTRU. I see no need to work further on it.
But where you and I disagree is in whether the compromise was intended to be closed-ended, applying only to those seven initial macrolanguages, or whether it was supposed to be applicable to any macrolanguages assigned in the future. Admittedly, we did not think there would be many. I think we need to focus on getting Michael to understand the principles involved, independently of campaigning for our own point of view. I have tried to represent your position fairly when explaining it to Michael. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 8 Feb 14:55
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Re: Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote: > I take issue with the linguistic wisdom of lav, and of re-assigning > "lv" to macro-language status.
That was an ISO 639-3/RA decision, and an argument to rescind it should be made with the RA. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 8 Feb 14:39
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Re: Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


Michael Everson <everson at evertype dot com> wrote: >> Correction: There are five Bontok languages, not three, encompassed >> by the newly reclassified Bontok macrolanguage: >> >> rbk - Northern Bontok >> lbk - Central Bontok >> vbk - Southwestern Bontok >> obk - Southern Bontok >> ebk - Eastern Bontok >> >> I missed the last two because they were on a different page of the >> 639-3 report, and referenced by a different change request number. > > So your proposal is to ignore some macrolanguage subtags but not > others?
That message had nothing to do with extlangs directly. I made a mistake in saying there were only 3 languages encompassed under Bontok. The fact that there are 5, not 3, could conceivably weigh on the decision whether to make them extlangs, although it shouldn't. Regarding the extlang question, my proposal is indeed to assign extlangs when their macrolanguage meets the criterion I mentioned earlier -- the macrolanguage subtag has been widely used to denote a single dominant language within the group -- and not assign them when it does not. I wouldn't have used the word "ignore" but I suppose one could. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 7 Feb 21:05
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Last call: Latvian (and Bontok) extlang subtags


On January 30 I wrote: > We do need to reach a final decision about whether to create extended > language subtags for Standard Latvian and Latgalian; in other words, > whether to add "Latvian" to the subset of macrolanguages which have > extlangs. So far only a few of us have made our preferences known.
No discussion about this has taken place on-list since that time. I would like to ask the Reviewer to make a final decision on the following two questions: (1) Whether two new extended language subtags shall be created for Latgalian ("lv-ltg") and Standard Latvian ("lv-lvs"), which are new ISO 639-3 code elements encompassed by Latvian ('lav'), recently reclassified as a macrolanguage, and (2) Whether three new extended language subtags shall be created for Northern Bontok ("bnc-rbk"), Central Bontok ("bnc-lbk"), and Southwestern Bontok ("bnc-vbk"), which are new ISO 639-3 code elements encompassed by Bontok ('bnc'), recently reclassified as a macrolanguage and renamed from "Central Bontoc." Arguments have been presented on-list, both pro and con, for question (1) since January 22, and off-and-on before then. We have hardly mentioned question (2) at all and I suspect the answer will be "no," but I raise it here for completeness and consistency. I will submit all the proposed records and registration forms for the Latvian and Bontok languages once I have heard a response from the Reviewer. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages <at> alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
Doug Ewell | 7 Feb 04:45
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Re: ISO 639-3 changes, part 2

I've formally reviewed the proposed records and registration forms put 
together by CE Whitehead in 
http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-February/010075.html .

All of them look fine except for one glitch: the Description field in 
the registration form for 'drw' (Darwazi) was deleted.  It's pretty 
obvious this was not intentional; it was probably an editing error 
caused while deleting the Added field from the form.  Below is the 
corrected form with the Description field restored (and some unnecessary 
blank lines removed); all of CE's other records and forms will be 
submitted as-is when the time comes.

---

LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM

1. Name of requester: C. E. Whitehead
2. E-mail address of requester: cewcathar at hotmail.com
3. Record Requested:

  Type: language
  Subtag: drw
  Description: Darwazi
  Deprecated: 2010-03-01
  Preferred-Value: prs

4. Intended meaning of the subtag:

5. Reference to published description
  of the language (book or article):

6. Any other relevant information:

  This registration tracks a change made to ISO 639-3 effective
  2010-01-20, retiring the code element, 'drw', for Darwazi.  Merged 
with Dari [prs].

  For more information on the ISO 639-3 change, refer to
  http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2009_Summary.pdf

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

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CE Whitehead | 4 Feb 01:02
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ISO 639-3 changes continued (Was: ISO 639-3 changes, part 2)


Hi, Doug, all, do you all trust me to do either of the two remaining sections at: http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2009_Summary.pdf ? ("Retirements and creations from code element splits" or "Updates";
I don't know which of these sets of change request actions you have started on--;
and whether you still need help at all; I was happy to do the first set and would be happy doing a second I suppose--depending on what you all think.) Thanks again to you and Kent for your help with the "Retirements from other . . . ". Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar <at> hotmail.com
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CE Whitehead | 31 Jan 23:49
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ISO 639-3 changes, part ? (Was ISO 639-3 changes, part 1)


 
Hi, Doug, thanks very much for accepting my offer.
I'd be happy to help.  Anyone has time to reply can answer my questions about the "Deprecated," "Preferred-value", "Comments," and "Any other relevant information" fields (below, followed by an example subtag).
 
(If I hear nothing back I'll assume I've got it right and will just go on.)

First, the "Any other relevant information" field:
 
For your first registration record, Doug wrote:

   "This registration tracks a change made to ISO 639-3 effective
   2010-01-20, adding the code element 'shd' for Kundal Shahi."

whereas I should write:
=>  ??

   "This registration tracks a change made to ISO 639-3 effective
   2010-01-20, retiring{/deprecating} the code element 'drh' for Darkhat {in favor of 'khk'}."
 
Correct?  (The informattion in brackets is for an alternative version, if you prefer that; otherwise I will omit it and use the word 'retiring'.)

Also I assume I need "Added," "Deprecated, and "Preferred-value" fields in the registration form as these are relevant.
(And maybe a "Comments" field (as for 'heploc')?? Or no maybe not?)
 
Finally, for the subtag, 'lut'

("Existing languages in this subgroup
of Salish languages are
Southern Puget Sound Salish
[slh], Skagit [ska], and
Snohomish [sno]")--
 
what is the 'Preferred-value'?
I assume I should just leave it blank.  Let me know if otherwise.
 
My example is below; I will email all sometime tomorrow
(with the fields as I have them except for the comments which I will not have
and without the text in brackets and with the 'Preferred-value' field for 'lut' empty--unless I hear otherwise;
but I think the requestor is still Doug Ewell or Michael Everson--I assume I am just copying clerical data the same way Doug copied and revised the 'heploc' deprecation request record but left the requestor as "Frank Bennett").
 
-----
LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION
File-Date: 2010-03-01
%%
Type: language
Subtag: drh
Description: Darkhat
Added: 2009-07-29
Deprecated: 2010-03-01
Preferred-Value: khk
%%
---
LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM
1. Name of requester: Doug Ewell  ???
2. E-mail address of requester: doug at ewellic.org ???
3. Record Requested:
   Type: language
   Subtag: drh
   Description: Darkhat
   Added: 2009-07-29
   Deprecated: 2010-03-01
   Preferred-Value: khk
{   Comments:  This variant subtag has been merged with the subtag 'khk'. }

4. Intended meaning of the subtag:
5. Reference to published description
   of the language (book or article):
6. Any other relevant information:

   This registration tracks a change made to ISO 639-3 effective
   2010-01-20, retiring{/deprecating} the code element 'drh' for Darkhat {?in favor of 'khk'}.
 
   For more information on the ISO 639-3 change, refer to
   http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/639-3_ChangeRequests_2009_Summary.pdf
 
* * *
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar <at> hotmail.com

 
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Doug Ewell | 31 Jan 21:41
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Re: Deprecation of heploc subtag, with comment

See 
http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-January/009956.html .

If there are no further comments on this topic by Tuesday 2010-02-02 at 
14:00 UTC, I'll send it to Michael for forwarding to IANA.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­

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Doug Ewell | 31 Jan 02:16
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Re: SUBJECT: ISO 639-3 changes, part 1

CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail dot com> wrote:

> I agree with Doug--we can do with just one update to the registry,
> but it's o.k. with me too to send this list off first (entirely new 
> subtags)
> and then the next and then the next (to have three updates, Entirely 
> New Codes, Retirements and Creations from Code Splits, Updates [of 
> names, etc])--
>
> just so long as we don't send more than three separate batches.

I'm not sure what's special about the number three, but I agree that the 
number of batches sent to IANA should be kept to a minimum.

The first batch sent to this list consisted of 15 records.  The batch 
corresponding to "Retirements from other than normal split of a language 
code element" will have around 10.  Some of the other categories in the 
639-3 document are larger, and I was planning to split them into smaller 
chunks.

> As far as Doug's records go, I mainly checked spelling of names and 
> whether there were extension language records.

Please check your terminology.  In BCP 47 we have "extensions" and we 
have "extended language subtags" and they are two entirely different 
things.

> All looked o.k.
>
> (One question:
> ...
> "   Description: Lengua de Señas del Paraguay
> ...
> I did not know they had a right to a description field in Spanish???
>
> But Mauritian sign language does not get a name in French or Creole!

I took the Description fields directly from the 639-3 data files, as I 
did when building 5645.  You will notice that 639-3 (and thus the 
Registry) already have several examples of sign languages whose names 
have been translated into other languages.  I don't know the RA's 
reasoning for doing this for sign languages, and only for some of them, 
and not for non-sign languages, but there have been lengthy and 
passionate arguments that we must follow the ISO standards, at least 
initially.

> (Finally, does Doug want any help transcribing any of the requests??? 
> Or is that absolutely something no one else does? )

There's no law that it has to be me.  Nobody else has really volunteered 
before.  if you'd like, you can try creating records and registration 
files for the first "Retirements" category on pages 1 and 2 of the 639-3 
document, and posting them here.  Keep in mind all the 5646 requirements 
that have to be met.

--
Doug Ewell  |  Thornton, Colorado, USA  |  http://www.ewellic.org
RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14  |  ietf-languages @ http://is.gd/2kf0s ­ 

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