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Paul Hoffman / IMC | 6 Aug 2003 18:43
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IMAA -02 draft available


Greetings again. Based on the discussions on the list earlier, Adam 
and I have revised the IMAA draft.

At this point, there appear to be only a few open issues, so please 
look through the document to both help resolve the open issues and to 
report any others that you think are there. We have heard interest 
from mail client vendors who would like to implement this sooner 
rather than later (so they can do IDNA and IMAA at the same time).

--Paul Hoffman

>To: IETF-Announce: ;
>From: Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org
>Reply-to: Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org
>Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-hoffman-imaa-02.txt
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:40:35 -0400
>Sender: owner-ietf-announce <at> ietf.org
>
>
>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
>directories.
>
>
>	Title		: Internationalizing Mail Addresses in Applications
>                           (IMAA)
>	Author(s)	: P. Hoffman, A. Costello
>	Filename	: draft-hoffman-imaa-02.txt
>	Pages		: 11
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Roy Badami | 6 Aug 2003 23:58
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Bidi issues


I'm trying to understand the rationale behind the bidi restrictions in
stringprep, but unfortunately the IDN list archives don't seem to be
accesible any longer.  Basically, I'm just wondering whether bidi
behaves sensibly in the context of IMAA.  (Or indeed whether the
stringprep restrictions are unnecessary in IMAA.)

Are the archives still available somewhere?

	-roy
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Adam M. Costello | 7 Aug 2003 04:41

Re: Bidi issues


Roy Badami <roy <at> gnomon.org.uk> wrote:

> I'm trying to understand the rationale behind the bidi restrictions in
> stringprep, but unfortunately the IDN list archives don't seem to be
> accesible any longer.

One message at a time, going back to 2000-Jan:

http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/

One month at a time, going back to 2002-Jan:

ftp://ops.ietf.org/pub/lists/idn.*

Hmmm, anyone know why the latter doesn't go back as far as the former?

> Basically, I'm just wondering whether bidi behaves sensibly in the
> context of IMAA.  (Or indeed whether the stringprep restrictions are
> unnecessary in IMAA.)

Good question, I hadn't really thought about that.

The motivation behind the bidi restrictions is that there exist very
different strings that get displayed exactly the same way.  I don't know
exactly why, but it's a consequence of the bidi algorithm.  You can try
reading UAX#9 if you like.  Good luck.  :)

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/
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Adam M. Costello | 7 Aug 2003 04:44

Re: Question: Fullwidth double-quote and fullwidth backslash


I wrote:

>     Local parts that need quoting can be difficult for humans to use.
>     This is already true for ASCII local parts, and is even more true
>     for IMA local parts.  It is inadvisable to create such local parts
>     if they are to be used by humans.

Doh, I forgot to insert that into the draft, because I had previously
forgotten to add it to my todo list.  It's now on the todo list.

AMC
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Adam M. Costello | 7 Aug 2003 04:46

changes between imaa-01 and -02


This might be helpful for reviewing the new draft.

AMC

Issues that were open and are now fully closed (not mentioned):

    Should IMAA support case-sensitive mail exchangers?  No.

    Should IMAA keep the requirement about recognizing fullwidth
    at-signs?  Yes.

    Should ideographic full stop be converted to ASCII full stop in
    local parts, as is done for domain name separators?  No.

    Should IMAA require that fullwidth quotation marks and backslashes
    be recognized?  No.

Issues that were closed-but-could-be-reopened and are now fully closed
(not mentioned):

    Should local parts be processed in segments?  Yes.

Issues that were open and are now closed-but-could-be-reopened:

    Should the 59-character limit on the Punycode encoder output
    be relaxed?  No.

    Should hyphens be protected?  Yes.
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John Cowan | 7 Aug 2003 05:19

Re: Bidi issues


Adam M. Costello scripsit:

> The motivation behind the bidi restrictions is that there exist very
> different strings that get displayed exactly the same way.  I don't know
> exactly why, but it's a consequence of the bidi algorithm.  You can try
> reading UAX#9 if you like.  Good luck.  :)

Here's an example.  I will use UPPER CASE to represent Arabic letters
and lower case to represent Latin letters, as is usual in examples of
this kind.  If you see, totally out of context, the string

	the arabs = BARA-LA

you cannot tell whether this says "the arabs = AL-ARAB", as would be the
case in an English context, or "AL-ARAB = the arabs", as would be the case
in an Arabic context.  In running text, it's possible to disambiguate,
but not in an identifier that has to work correctly out of context.

Consequently, the stringprep rules forbid a identifier that contains
both LTR and RTL characters.  It really has nothing to do with the encoding
of the characters, only with their appearance.

--

-- 
With techies, I've generally found              John Cowan
If your arguments lose the first round          http://www.reutershealth.com
    Make it rhyme, make it scan                 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
    Then you generally can                      jcowan <at> reutershealth.com
Make the same stupid point seem profound!           --Jonathan Robie
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J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin | 7 Aug 2003 14:12
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Re: changes between imaa-01 and -02


At 04:46 07/08/03, Adam M. Costello wrote:
>     Should IMAA support case-sensitive mail exchangers?  No.

I thought we made clear that yes. And that you made clear that punnycode 
had no problem with it .

Or am I wrong on the meaning. We need LeBars <at> wanadoo.fr  to land as 
LeBars <at> wanadoo.fr. Up to Wanadoo to reduce it if it wants to 
lebars <at> wanadoo.fr or to le.bars <at> wanadoo.fr or not.

jfc
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Arnt Gulbrandsen | 7 Aug 2003 16:09
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Re: changes between imaa-01 and -02


J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin writes:
> At 04:46 07/08/03, Adam M. Costello wrote:
>>     Should IMAA support case-sensitive mail exchangers?  No.
>
> I thought we made clear that yes. And that you made clear that 
> punnycode had no problem with it .

Today, some software needs to treat localparts as case sensitive and 
some as insensitive (e.g. an address book lookup). That's painful. To 
me, it makes very little sense to carry that forward into IMAA.

> Or am I wrong on the meaning. We need LeBars <at> wanadoo.fr  to land as 
> LeBars <at> wanadoo.fr. Up to Wanadoo to reduce it if it wants to 
> lebars <at> wanadoo.fr or to le.bars <at> wanadoo.fr or not.

Why do we need that? And even if we do, a simple 'preserve case during 
handling' rule will do.

--Arnt
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Martin Duerst | 7 Aug 2003 16:55
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Re: Bidi issues


Hello Roy,

Adam provides a pretty good explanation. We have also adopted
very much the same rules for IRIs (which contain domain names).
For the current (internal) draft, see
http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/draft-duerst-iri.html#Bidi
and please also have a look at the examples at
http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/BidiExamples.

Some more details below.

[I have copied public-iri <at> w3.org because I'm mentioning the IRI solution]

At 02:41 03/08/07 +0000, Adam M. Costello wrote:

>Roy Badami <roy <at> gnomon.org.uk> wrote:

>As for IMAA, I have no doubt that some sort of bidi check is needed for
>the local part, for the same reasons it is needed for domain labels.
>And I have no doubt that the bidi check in Stringprep is sufficient and
>overkill, just as it is for domain labels.  The only difference is how
>much overkill.  Consider the address foo.bar <at> example.net.  Stringprep
>is applied to "example" and to "net" independently, but it is applied
>to "foo.bar" all together.  Therefore there might exist strings that
>would be valid domain names but not valid local parts.

Yes, in particular if e.g. foo is Arabic and bar is Latin, or so.
Sounds like a rather strict restriction to me that there should be
absolutely no way to fit these two alphabets into the local part.
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Paul Hoffman / IMC | 7 Aug 2003 17:11
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Re: changes between imaa-01 and -02


At 2:12 PM +0200 8/7/03, J-F C. (Jefsey)  Morfin wrote:
>At 04:46 07/08/03, Adam M. Costello wrote:
>>     Should IMAA support case-sensitive mail exchangers?  No.
>
>I thought we made clear that yes.

I don't see that in the mailing list archives. Could you point to the 
messages that said we should?

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium
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