Joseph Yee | 31 Jan 2012 11:11

Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not

All,

I made a session request for EAI at upcoming IETF (see attached).  However, it's likely that John and I would
not be in Paris.  I would like to ask who will go to Paris, and what issues are the WG facing that we need a face to
face meeting to resolve.  Having a meeting or not will be determined by attendance and issues at hand.  If
there will be meeting in Paris, then I will ask for volunteers to help hosting the session.

Regards,
Joseph, co-chair EAI

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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool <session_request_developers <at> ietf.org>
Subject: eai - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 83
Date: 2012-01-30 21:52:45 GMT
A new meeting session request has just been submitted
by Joseph Yee, a working group chair of eai.

---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: eai
Area Name: Applications Area
Session Requester: Joseph Yee

Number of Sessions: 1
(Continue reading)

John C Klensin | 31 Jan 2012 11:39

Re: Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not


--On Tuesday, January 31, 2012 05:11 -0500 Joseph Yee
<jyee <at> afilias.info> wrote:

> All,
> 
> I made a session request for EAI at upcoming IETF (see
> attached).  However, it's likely that John and I would not be
> in Paris.  I would like to ask who will go to Paris, and what
> issues are the WG facing that we need a face to face meeting
> to resolve.  Having a meeting or not will be determined by
> attendance and issues at hand.  If there will be meeting in
> Paris, then I will ask for volunteers to help hosting the
> session.

Writing as participant more than as co-chair...

The four core documents are in AUTH48 now and nearing
publication (for most of them, I think we are finished as soon
as some additional folks sign off).  One of the causes of delay
is that the editing process and AUTH48 review made it clear that
WG participants didn't read these drafts nearly carefully
enough.  Some of the problems were just silly and easily
corrected, but those problems should not have remained in the
documents going into Last Call, much less being caught at AUTH48
(example: several of the references to 5335bis from the other
documents had the wrong title and author list).  Others were
more substantive (e.g., some confusion about our actual order of
preferences in part of 5336bis).   We are getting them fixed up
(or deciding to let them go), but the fact that they weren't
(Continue reading)

ned+ima | 31 Jan 2012 22:08

Re: Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not

> We have claimed that the POP, IMAP, and POP-IMAP-downgrade
> documents are just about ready to go.  There are no outstanding
> consensus call issues on any of them.  If people can read them
> now, identify any issues and have enough discussion start
> getting any issues resolved, we can issue a WG Last Call and
> have those documents in IETF Last Call before Paris.  On the
> other hand, the experience with the core documents is going to
> make me, and I presume Joseph and Pete, very wary of forwarding
> documents into IETF Last Call unless there is evidence of
> significantly more careful review than we saw the last time
> around.

> If we cannot get a more appropriate level of review and
> discussion for the next three documents, my recommendation to
> Joseph and Pete will be that we shut down the WG (or put it on a
> long vacation) rather than trying to move forward with the other
> documents.

I have to agree with John about this. I will also observe that when you get
right down to it, the present set of documents are in fact technically fairly
simple and straightforward in their approach. (And this is a good thing.)

But the same most certainly cannot be said for any of these last three
documents, most especially the downgrade specification. If these documents do
not receive extensive and careful technical review I have to agree that the
best thing to do is to abandon then for now. Breakage in any of these things is
a sure recipe for a near-endless set of long term issues.

				Ned
(Continue reading)

Arnt Gulbrandsen | 1 Feb 2012 00:02
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Re: Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not

Which documents, exactly, should I review? I ask because when I googled for eai imap I found one which expired in June 2010. I can review it, fine, but I have a nasty feeling that I am again looking at an obsolete document.

Arnt

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Joseph Yee | 1 Feb 2012 00:26

Re: Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not

Hi Arnt,


All EAI documents are available at IETF WG page:

The most recent IMAP draft published at 2011-12-26 (day after Christmas).

Best
Joseph

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt <at> gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:
Which documents, exactly, should I review? I ask because when I googled for eai imap I found one which expired in June 2010. I can review it, fine, but I have a nasty feeling that I am again looking at an obsolete document.

Arnt

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Arnt Gulbrandsen | 1 Feb 2012 00:50
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Re: Determine for EAI to meet at IETF83 or not

I chased some links.

5738bis does not say what happens if a server advertises utf8=only and a client uses mutf7. I suggest a mandatory NO (rendering that part if the namespace inaccessible forever). I like 5738bis otherwise.

I am not capable of judging the pop document tonight. I found the irrelevant LANG feature too aggravating.

Downgrade is, IMHO, rather too complex. It seems to be very god work, but so complex. Does downgrade really need to be that good? I like the address treatment, and subject needs to be downgraded, but the rest? It's a lot of work, a great many test cases, and I fear that the only people who care are the ones who implement EAI and never need the downgraded version.


Arnt

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Arnt Gulbrandsen | 30 Jan 2012 13:17
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Unhappy with the complexity of pop-imap-downgrade

TL;DR: Change downgrading to support what's most important to the end 
user, and drop the rest. Lessen the amount of code provided to implement 
downgrade to the minimum possible.

Rationale: While I find the downgrading document is well written, the 
downgrade itself is IMO much too complex to be worthwhile. There's too 
much to implement, too many cases to test, etc.

It defines new header fields that are intended to be parsable by new 
code and even encourages parsing them. That's not good. We want people 
to spend their time and energy implementing EAI natively, not writing 
clientside parsers for Downgraded-Header-Field-X.

Details: Below I give section numbers and suggested action.

Section 4 (about new parsable header fields, Downgraded-This-That):

New text: "Server MAY generate Downgraded- fields. Clients MUST NOT rely 
on such fields or try to parse such fields."

Section 5 (about downgrading various syntax elements):

5.1.1: If any Received field cannot be sent to non-EAI POP or IMAP 
clients, then all Received fields are silently suppressed.

5.1.4: Any comments that require EAI are silently excised when the 
header field is sent to an non-EAI client.

As an aside, I really, really hate this:
   Date: 14 aug 2011 12:00:00 +0200 (Mitteleuropäische Zeit)

5.1.5: Any MIME values that require EAI MAY be silently excised, or MAY 
be converted to use RFC2231 syntax.

5.1.8: I like the algorithm, but I would prefer that the exact address 
be explicitly undefined, so noone is tempted to detect EAI by looking at 
a magic group name.

Btw. For reasons I cannot at the moment remember, I generate

    "æ <at> æ.no" <invalid <at> eai.invalid>

instead of an empty group. I'm sure I had a reason, though.

5.1.9: Seems to overlap with 4. I think 5.1.9 is a better location than 
5 for this.

5.2.x: I would change most of these to be examples showing the effect of 
the relevant 5.1.x rule.

6 (about MIME bodypart fields): Replace with "If any MIME values (e.g. a 
file name in content-disposition) require EAI, these values are silently 
excised before showing the header field to the client. If any other part 
of a bodypart fields requires EAI, the entire field is silently excised."

7. Strike about half, particularly the bit about parsing downgrade-*. 
Add a sentence such as "Sending EAI to non-EAI aware recipients offers 
new opportunities for misunderstandings, spoofing and deception, if the 
recipient is unable to read or understand a part of the message's meaning".

I apologise for suggesting such large changes so late.

Arnt

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