Jeff Yeh | 1 Mar 04:15 2006
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[IEE] Update I-D: draft-yeh-ima-utf8headers-01.txt.

Dear all,

Newly updated header document is posted and can be found on 
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yeh-ima-utf8headers-01.txt.
Your precious comments are invited.

Regards

Jeff Yeh
YAO Jiankang | 1 Mar 04:15 2006
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[IEE] Fw: I-D ACTION:draft-yao-ima-smtpext-02.txt

Dear all,

Newly updated smtp extension document is posted 
Your precious comments are welcome.

Yao Jiankang
CNNIC

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org>
To: <i-d-announce <at> ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:50 AM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-yao-ima-smtpext-02.txt 


> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 
> Title : SMTP extension for internationalized email address
> Author(s) : X. Lee, J. Yao
> Filename : draft-yao-ima-smtpext-02.txt
> Pages : 13
> Date : 2006-2-28
> 
> Internationalized eMail Address (IMA) includes two parts, the local
>    part and the domain part.  The way email addresses are used by
>    protocols are different from the way domain names are used.  The most
>    critical difference is that emails are delivered through a chain of
>    peering clients and servers while domain names are resolved by name
>    servers by looking up their own tables.  In addition to this, email
(Continue reading)

YAO Jiankang | 1 Mar 07:41 2006
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[IEE] recent submitted draft related to IMA

 
recent submitted drafts related to IMA
 
 
 
YAO Jiankang
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Martin Duerst | 1 Mar 08:39 2006
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Re: [IEE] WG Review: Email Address Internationalization (eai)

Hello Dave,

At 17:47 06/02/27, you wrote:

 >> It may be the first time somebody is saying that using all 8 bits
 >> that TCP/IP provides needs a research effort.
 >
 >Since it is not what I said, it probably does not help dialogue to 
represent my concern this way.

Sorry to start my comments with this somewhat provocative and
simplifying statement.

You still may want to answer the rest of my mail.

I also agree with what Yangwoo Ko has said, and you seem to agree
to a large extent, too. My understanding is that we are all not
sure how well deployment will work, and we are very well aware
of the fact that deployment will be critical, and we need to work
hard to try to come up with finetuned proposals that do the best
in this respect.

Taking that back to the IRTF vs. Experimental discussion, it seems
to me that the only way to do research (if you want to call it that)
about deployment issues is to actually try to, at least experimentally,
deploy the technology. Testing out different alternatives/configurations/
settings as one would usually do in research doesn't seem like an
option. In my view even the Experimental stamp will hold back some
real-world deployment that might happen with Proposed. That's why
I said that I personally preferred Standards track: It's better to
go to Proposed and if necessary later to historical/obsolete than to
do IRTF or Experimental and miss a deployment opportunity because
we never actually really tried.

Regards,     Martin. 
Harald Alvestrand | 2 Mar 17:42 2006
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[IEE] Current list of EAI related drafts

The following list of drafts are related to EAI (the proto-WG formerly 
known as IEE and IMA):

Problem/framing:

draft-alvestrand-i18mail-scenarios
draft-klensin-ima-constraints

Solution:

draft-klensin-ima-framework
draft-yeh-ima-utf8headers
draft-yao-ima-smtpext
draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade (if -01 comes through)
draft-newman-ima-pop

I wrote the first one on the list to attempt to answer Keith Moore's 
question that I interpreted as "what do you mean when you say 'email 
works'". If the IESG chooses to ask me to function as chair for this WG, 
it needs another editor.

The second one is intended as an input piece, not as WG output.

Please send a note if I've overlooked one!

                 Harald
Yangwoo Ko | 3 Mar 10:18 2006
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Re: [IEE] WG Review: Email Address Internationalization (eai)


Dear Dave Crocker,

Thanks for good points. Please find my replies embedded below.

Regards

Dave Crocker wrote:

>
> > Dicussion between Dave and John, quoted above, can be understood as how
>
>> significant it will be? I'd rather interpret the "significance" in 
>> somewhat different aspect.
>
>
> I think you have describe the question correctly.
>
> I think that a change in the form of email addresses that can cause 
> delivery to fail should be considered significant.

(Off-topic) Are we "changing the form" of email addresses? As a 
non-native English
speaker, it is always very hard to grasp various meanings and usages of 
English words.
I think we are just "adding more forms" thanks to the nice property of 
UTF-8.

(On) Delivery failure is not always bad. Through a failure notice, a 
user is able to see that
he/she should use alternative addresses if available. Though I don't 
think this type of human
assisted address alternation is the best engineering solution, it is 
still one of valuable
options we can take.

>
> It can/will partition the functional infrastructure.
>
>
>> As we assume, it seems to be relatively easy to do IMA only between 
>> agreed parties. The real devil lies at the boundary.
>
>
> Yes.  Exactly correct.
>
>
>> However good news is that, as a design team of this extention, we 
>> have a knob that controls how significantly we want to change the 
>> infrastructure. For example, in one extreme, we can just drop any 
>> mail that tries to cross the boundary. On the other extreme, every 
>> part of the Internet infrastructure is required to be upgraded 
>> somehow to support IMA so perfectly that users cannot even recognize 
>> that there is such boundary. In order to make IMA more usable, we 
>> want to deviate from the former extreme as much as possible. In order 
>> to make IMA be more practical, we cannot but deviate from the other 
>> extreme.
>
>
> How does a design team control the operational behavior of boundary 
> MTAs?  The experience with gatewaying between independent mail 
> services is that it is a challenge, at best.

I don't see your point. If a standard cannot define the behavior
of "compliant" components, then what is that standard for?

Or, are you saying that it is impossible to standardize the
behavior of gateways because the complexity of gatewaying
is simply beyond the human-being's brain power?

> Further, the experience with the use of "private" IP Addresses within 
> networks is they leak out into the public Internet.

Yes. They will leak regardless of how hard we try to
design the right thing. However, we have defined private IP address
range and users are using it everyday. Because it is very useful to
solve many real issues.

No one can say that I18N addresses will not leak at all. Users who
are not using EAI-enabled components will get hurt from time
to time. It seems impossible (or at least impractically hard) to avoid
this type of uncomfort completely. If IETF as a community
has a rough consensus that any form of leak with any frequency is
significant and  any new idea leading to that significant change should
be dealt by IRTF, then let EAI be discussed at IRTF.

>
> In the last 25 years, there have been somewhere between 0 and few 
> efforts to affect basic deliverability.  (DSN is the possible 
> exception and it's adoption history provides quite an education.)
>
> d/
>
Tony Hansen | 9 Mar 16:51 2006
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[IEE] schedule conflict

I wish there were something that could be done about the conflict
between eai Email Address Internationalization BOF and dkim Domain Keys
Identified Mail WG, both Monday 1:00 - 3:00.

	Tony Hansen
	tony <at> att.com
Yoshiro YONEYA | 9 Mar 22:23 2006
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[IEE] Re: Current list of EAI related drafts

Dear Folks,

draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade-01 has published.

-- 
Yoshiro YONEYA <yone <at> jprs.co.jp>

On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 17:42:03 +0100 Harald Alvestrand <harald <at> alvestrand.no> wrote:

> The following list of drafts are related to EAI (the proto-WG formerly 
> known as IEE and IMA):
> 
> Problem/framing:
> 
> draft-alvestrand-i18mail-scenarios
> draft-klensin-ima-constraints
> 
> Solution:
> 
> draft-klensin-ima-framework
> draft-yeh-ima-utf8headers
> draft-yao-ima-smtpext
> draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade (if -01 comes through)
> draft-newman-ima-pop
> 
> I wrote the first one on the list to attempt to answer Keith Moore's 
> question that I interpreted as "what do you mean when you say 'email 
> works'". If the IESG chooses to ask me to function as chair for this WG, 
> it needs another editor.
> 
> The second one is intended as an input piece, not as WG output.
> 
> Please send a note if I've overlooked one!
> 
>                  Harald
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima
> 
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From: Dear Folks, draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade-01 has published. -- Yoshiro YONEYA <yone <at> jprs.co.jp> On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 17:42:03 +0100 Harald Alvestrand <harald <at> alvestrand.no> wrote: > The following list of drafts are related to EAI (the proto-WG formerly > known as IEE and IMA): > > Problem/framing: > > draft-alvestrand-i18mail-scenarios > draft-klensin-ima-constraints > > Solution: > > draft-klensin-ima-framework > draft-yeh-ima-utf8headers > draft-yao-ima-smtpext > draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade (if -01 comes through) > draft-newman-ima-pop > > I wrote the first one on the list to attempt to answer Keith Moore's > question that I interpreted as "what do you mean when you say 'email > works'". If the IESG chooses to ask me to function as chair for this WG, > it needs another editor. > > The second one is intended as an input piece, not as WG output. > > Please send a note if I've overlooked one! > > Harald > > > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA <at> ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > <Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org>
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade-01.txt
Date: 2006-03-09 20:50:02 GMT
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title		: Downgrading mechanism for Internationalized eMail Address (IMA)
	Author(s)	: Y. Yoneya, K. Fujiwara
	Filename	: draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade-01.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2006-3-9
	
Traditional mail system handles only US-ASCII characters in SMTP
envelope and mail headers.  The Internationalized eMail Address (IMA)
is implemented by allowing UTF-8 characters in SMTP envelope and mail
headers.  To deliver IMA through IMA incompliant environment, some
sort of converting mechanism (i.e. downgrading) is required.  This
document describes requirements for downgrading, SMTP session
downgrade, header downgrade and implementation consideration.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yoneya-ima-downgrade-01.txt

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Harald Alvestrand | 12 Mar 20:28 2006
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Re: [IEE] schedule conflict

This has now been resolved - EAI is meeting on Monday from 1740 to 1840, 
in the Chantilly W room (opposite PANA, SHIM6, XCON, RTGAREA, SMIME and 
PMTUD).

Some people may have a problem with SMIME...

                              Harald

Tony Hansen wrote:
> I wish there were something that could be done about the conflict
> between eai Email Address Internationalization BOF and dkim Domain Keys
> Identified Mail WG, both Monday 1:00 - 3:00.
>
> 	Tony Hansen
> 	tony <at> att.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA <at> ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima
>
>   
Dave Crocker | 12 Mar 21:13 2006
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Re: [IEE] schedule conflict

Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> This has now been resolved - EAI is meeting on Monday from 1740 to 1840, 
> in the Chantilly W room (opposite PANA, SHIM6, XCON, RTGAREA, SMIME and 
> PMTUD).
> 
> Some people may have a problem with SMIME...

Dandy news.  Thanks!

It appears EAI extends to the following session, 1850-1950. ASRG is during that 
session, though its IRTF, not IETF.

d/

ps. The comment about SMIME was meant to refer to the meeting schedule, or was 
it perhaps a more global assessment...?

--

-- 

Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
<http://bbiw.net>

Gmane