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Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere | 5 Oct 2005 04:39

IAA charter item query

Oki all,

I've grovelled through the archives abck to the first charter and I haven't
found a satisfactory discussion of the IAA requirement, or non-requirement,
or operational experience(s) with any IAA specificiation or reference
implementation.

If anyone has some clue to throw my way, I'd appreciate it. The data is
anecdotal, but in the Katrina outage area IAA-like query and response
attempts (absent an actual IAA mechanism other than voice-to-voice w/o
any call routing or forwarding or logging, other than that incidental to
voice service, contributed to network load, responder tasking, dispatch
failure, and of course, end user stress, and no governmental or quango
involved in Katrina response operates a "missing persons" database, though
one quango has made an attempt in that area.

Cheers,
Eric
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GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART | 6 Oct 2005 18:14
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RE: IAA charter item query

Eric,

Like everyone else on the planet, I was glued to the TV during the resent disaster in New Orleans.

There were a number of occasions where the victim being interviewed said they had lost touch with family
members and used the TV broadcast as an opportunity to send a message saying where they were now and how they
could be contacted by the missing family members. As I watched this exchange a number of times, each time I
was reminded of the ""I Am Alive" capability database that still is not in existence  in the US.

Having said that, it is my understanding that such a capability would entail the ability to post
location/status type of data about individuals on a database that could be queried by the public. Perhaps
the posting might need to be done by an agency such as the Red Cross in the US, to avoid malicious postings.
(Mickey Mouse is OK, or worse, fraudulent information).

If that understanding is basically correct, then it would seem to me that neither the posting nor the
querying of the database, while important to the participants, is of a nature that it would need
preference over other traffic, such as the communications from First Responders require.  If it
sufficient to support this capability with the same level of service as provided for ordinary
communications, does the effort then fall on just developing the capability, which may not need any
special accommodations in the IP space, or am I missing something?

Stu Goldman
Lucent Technologies
5531 E. Kelton LN
Scottsdale,AZ 85254
602 493 8438 home office
623-582-7136 voicemail  

-----Original Message-----
From: ieprep-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:ieprep-bounces <at> ietf.org]On Behalf
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Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere | 5 Oct 2005 04:46

Re: IAA charter item query

Stu,

> ... post location/status type of data about individuals on a database th
> at could be queried by the public ...

Application schema and access models do not all degenrate to "all" and "any".

> If that understanding is basically correct ...

It doesn't match with mine, but that's OK.

Our experience providing SATV/wireless|phones/VoIP to the Gulf Coast prior
to RBOC|ILEC|wirelineISPs resotration of idata and voice is different from
yours, but milage varies, and ToS/QoS has always been a fun ride.

Eric
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Henning Schulzrinne | 6 Oct 2005 18:41

Re: IAA charter item query

I agree with Stu that this is somewhat beyond the traditional focus of 
IEPREP on prioritization of first-responder and emergency coordination 
network traffic.

However, this is clearly an area where lack of standards makes things 
far less efficient than they could be. Having hundreds of impromptu web 
sites pop up where people register (and try to find others) is not 
exactly a good use of time for volunteers or families trying to reunite.

In my view, this is less of a protocol problem than a data format 
problem. If you were to define a data format representing a "sighting" 
of a person, you could then use a variety of secured mechanisms to 
gather this information, from HTTP to SIP IM to SMTP and maybe even p2p 
protocols. In some cases, for example, a laptop in a shelter may not 
have network connectivity, so it makes more sense to collect those and 
then upload them in batch by carrying a disk or having a "circuit rider" 
virtually pick them up. (We have built a system, called 7DS, that does 
something like that, although emergency use was not among our envisioned 
set of applications.)

We have one such format already, namely the PIDF-LO + CIPID format. It 
contains location information ("where/when seen") and name/original 
address information.

Henning

GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART) wrote:
> Eric,
> 
> Like everyone else on the planet, I was glued to the TV during the
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Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere | 5 Oct 2005 04:50

Re: IAA charter item query

Henning,

I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone, that any rather trivial application
is in-scope for any working group. Nor that the absnece of such a mechanism is
a cause for load upon first-responder and emergency coordination network
traffic, for weeks after the failure of the communications fabric.

If there is no further clue, I'll unsub and leave you all to the chartered
deliverables.
Eric
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GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART | 6 Oct 2005 19:10
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RE: IAA charter item query

Eric,

I may not have been clear in my original response. I was giving support for the need for such a service and
using the protracted disruption of service in a large geographical area coupled with the mass migration
of that population out of the area and dispersed across the country.

I was then trying to understand how such a service could coming into existence and what protocol
enhancements, if any, would be needed. (example: is preference needed?)

Henning has an excellent point that a single, uniform service capability would be much preferred over a
collection of diverse service points with different procedures, formats, etc.

Personally I would hate to see any supporter of the need for IAA drop themselves from the mailing list.

Stu Goldman
Lucent Technologies
5531 E. Kelton LN
Scottsdale,AZ 85254
602 493 8438 home office
623-582-7136 voicemail  

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere
[mailto:brunner <at> nic-naa.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:50 PM
To: Henning Schulzrinne
Cc: GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART); Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT
somewhere; Ieprep <at> ietf.org; brunner <at> nic-naa.net
Subject: Re: [Ieprep] IAA charter item query
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Henning Schulzrinne | 6 Oct 2005 19:14

Re: IAA charter item query

If this wasn't obvious from my previous note, I would certainly advocate 
that standardization activities in this area are undertaken. I'm less 
convinced that a transport-layer group is the right venue for that. 
Maybe a BOF should investigate whether this is a components or a systems 
issue, i.e., do we need more protocols or "just" somebody to put 
existing things together?

I also suspect that without participation by, say, the ICRC, FEMA and 
other bodies, that such activities will be largely ignored. The 
traditional model of translating IETF activities into practice via 
hardware and telecom systems vendors is not likely to work well here.

(Also, it might be worth noting that OASIS is working on data formats 
related to law enforcement and emergency alerting.)

Henning

GOLDMAN, STUART O (STUART) wrote:
> Eric,
> 
> I may not have been clear in my original response. I was giving support for the need for such a service and
using the protracted disruption of service in a large geographical area coupled with the mass migration
of that population out of the area and dispersed across the country.
> 
> I was then trying to understand how such a service could coming into existence and what protocol
enhancements, if any, would be needed. (example: is preference needed?)
> 
> Henning has an excellent point that a single, uniform service capability would be much preferred over a
collection of diverse service points with different procedures, formats, etc.
>
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Rex Buddenberg | 6 Oct 2005 19:31
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RE: IAA charter item query

Eric, Stu, and ...

One of my colleagues has generated the nasty habit of raiding my lab and
heading off to disasters.  First the tsunami (Phuket, Thailand to be
specific) and most recently Katrina (Hancock County, Ms).  There's a
distinct pattern that shows here:

1.  In all cases, there's a multi-agency government/quasi government
command and control operation.  Often with ad hoc players that just sort
of appear on scene.  These need
	- instant internet to replace the wiped-out infrastructure
	- an interoperable set of applications (e-mail, instant messaging,
common operational picture, ...).  Your comment is right -- authenticity
is a core requirement that is lacking in may of the off-shelf apps and
certainly in the off-shelf configurations out there.  
	

2.  In some cases, there's a big family reunification problem.  It
didn't occur in, say, Northridge earthquake because the quake had the
manners to arrive at o-dark-thirty when the kids weren't in school, etc.
But there were hundreds of Europeans vacationing in Thailand when the
tsunami arrived -- a very large family reunification problem.
Northridge would have had this problem if it had happened at 1000
instead of middle of night.  Katrina had the family reunification
problem layered on top of 1. above; Rita tended not to because the
warnings were heeded much more seriously.
	In Thailand, my colleague set up an 802.16 backbone with a satellite
backhaul to the Internet and populated the fringes of the .16 network
with 802.11 APs.  The primary penetrations were into a refugee camp and
a Buddhist monastery that had been appropriated as a morgue (DNA
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Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere | 5 Oct 2005 04:55

Re: IAA charter item query

What round hole to stuff a square peg?

Its an app. If the IETF is about interoperability by zero or more
implementations of a protocol, in this instance (and others in the
apps are specified in terms of bnf or xml schema, specified by some
syntax, it still isn't a given the WG "belongs in" any particular area.

My point isn't to distract you (all) from real-time presence data and
things that produce and/or consume such data. I'm simply interested in
a problem that can be characterized as lazy write-through or disconnected
operations presence, and mechanism(s) that produce and/or consume such data.

Yes, pigeons actually will suffice, for some data compresion densities, and
yes,  users actually do attempt to obtain resource allocation during fabric
transition events.

I only asked because IAA was on the original charter.

Thanks everyone for your time.
Eric
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Eric Brunner-Williams at a VSAT somewhere | 5 Oct 2005 04:57

Re: IAA charter item query

Hi Rex,

I was pleased to see NPGS students at the Hancock Co. EOC, we're due to roll
into replace the Mobile Learning Lab's VSAT et al in a few days time, so
Jim and Heather can page back out to Toronto.

FEMA doesn't have a area-global persons-affected db, and has no placns of
record to develop one (the missing count is much higher than the dead, a
it was in the Asian Tsunami. The ARC is only doing shelter-housed padbs,
and has policy and implementation ability issues of the profoundest sort.

You are corret that for large values of use, when the fabric fails and the
services fail, shipping personal status bits (dead|missing|wounded|alive),
is done by low-b/w best-effort mechanisms -- like smtp.

If I run into any NPGS students I'll say "Hello!", my mom was on staff there
for ever.

Eric
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