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Mark Nottingham | 3 Aug 2010 08:50
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Re: NEW: #225: PUT and DELETE invalidation vs. staleness

Right, but by changing 'invalidate' to 'stale', we're loosening a requirement -- one that's specified in
some detail.

How do others feel about this?

On 29/07/2010, at 8:28 PM, Yves Lafon wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On 29/07/2010, at 12:08 PM, Yves Lafon wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just checked my implementation, and it marks it as stale, mandating revalidation. It is really up to
implementation, so p2 should defer to p6 for the definition of what a cache should do in any case (to remove
the current conflict), and let implementation decide.
>> 
>> If you mandate revalidation, it's not just stale; it conforms to the p6 definition of invalidation.
Calling it 'stale' will confuse matters.
> 
> My code mandates revalidation, so it conforms to p6, the modification in p6 from "invalid" to "stale" is
just to reflect what is in p2.
> 
> In a way, marking it stale makes more sense, serving content will happen only if the cache can't
revalidate, so if contacting the server is impossible, and it is not worse than asking another cache that
might have the same outdated information.
> 
> If the server really don't want that to happen, must-revalidate is in order.
> 
> -- 
> Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.
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Alexey Melnikov | 4 Aug 2010 13:03
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Request for feedback on HTTP Streaming overview (draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps)

With WG Chairs' permission, I would like to request that people who are 
interested in HTTP Streaming in general (and 
draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps in particular) join the RAI 
DISPATCH WG mailing list for further discussions of the topic:

 http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dispatch/

RAI Area Directors are interested in finding out if there is enough 
interest in having a BOF on the subject, or to publish this document as 
an individual submission, etc.

Best Regards,
Alexey
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Internet | 4 Aug 2010 14:15
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I-D Action:draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : HTTP/1.1, part 3: Message Payload and Content Negotiation
	Author(s)       : R. Fielding, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-11.txt
	Pages           : 47
	Date            : 2010-08-04

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is an application-level
protocol for distributed, collaborative, hypermedia information
systems.  HTTP has been in use by the World Wide Web global
information initiative since 1990.  This document is Part 3 of the
seven-part specification that defines the protocol referred to as
"HTTP/1.1" and, taken together, obsoletes RFC 2616.  Part 3 defines
HTTP message content, metadata, and content negotiation.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-11.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Internet-Draft.
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Internet | 4 Aug 2010 14:15
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I-D Action:draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : HTTP/1.1, part 2: Message Semantics
	Author(s)       : R. Fielding, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-11.txt
	Pages           : 58
	Date            : 2010-08-04

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is an application-level
protocol for distributed, collaborative, hypermedia information
systems.  HTTP has been in use by the World Wide Web global
information initiative since 1990.  This document is Part 2 of the
seven-part specification that defines the protocol referred to as
"HTTP/1.1" and, taken together, obsoletes RFC 2616.  Part 2 defines
the semantics of HTTP messages as expressed by request methods,
request-header fields, response status codes, and response-header
fields.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-11.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Internet | 4 Aug 2010 14:30
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I-D Action:draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : HTTP/1.1, part 6: Caching
	Author(s)       : R. Fielding, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-11.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2010-08-04

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is an application-level
protocol for distributed, collaborative, hypermedia information
systems.  This document is Part 6 of the seven-part specification
that defines the protocol referred to as "HTTP/1.1" and, taken
together, obsoletes RFC 2616.  Part 6 defines requirements on HTTP
caches and the associated header fields that control cache behavior
or indicate cacheable response messages.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-11.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Internet | 4 Aug 2010 14:30
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I-D Action:draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : HTTP/1.1, part 5: Range Requests and Partial Responses
	Author(s)       : R. Fielding, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-11.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2010-08-04

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is an application-level
protocol for distributed, collaborative, hypermedia information
systems.  HTTP has been in use by the World Wide Web global
information initiative since 1990.  This document is Part 5 of the
seven-part specification that defines the protocol referred to as
"HTTP/1.1" and, taken together, obsoletes RFC 2616.  Part 5 defines
range-specific requests and the rules for constructing and combining
responses to those requests.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-11.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Internet | 4 Aug 2010 14:30
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I-D Action:draft-ietf-httpbis-p7-auth-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : HTTP/1.1, part 7: Authentication
	Author(s)       : R. Fielding, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-httpbis-p7-auth-11.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2010-08-04

The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) is an application-level
protocol for distributed, collaborative, hypermedia information
systems.  HTTP has been in use by the World Wide Web global
information initiative since 1990.  This document is Part 7 of the
seven-part specification that defines the protocol referred to as
"HTTP/1.1" and, taken together, obsoletes RFC 2616.  Part 7 defines
HTTP Authentication.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-httpbis-p7-auth-11.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Julian Reschke | 4 Aug 2010 15:03
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HTTPbis -11 drafts published

Hi,

we have published a snapshot as draft-ietf-httpbis-*-11 today.

All changes should be mentioned in the changes sections:

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p1-messaging-11#appendix-D.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-11#appendix-C.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p3-payload-11#appendix-E.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p4-conditional-11#appendix-C.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-11#appendix-D.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p6-cache-11#appendix-C.12>

<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p7-auth-11#appendix-B.12>

Probably the most important change is that we got rid of lots of 
confusing terminology (entity/message/payload/variant/representation), 
and now only talk about messages, payloads, and representations (thanks, 
Roy!).

Feedback appreciated, Julian
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Yves Lafon | 4 Aug 2010 16:45
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http URI grammar

In rfc2616, the production was:
    http_URL = "http:" "//" host [ ":" port ] [ abs_path [ "?" query ]]

from 2396bis:
abs_path became path-absolute in 2396bis

    path          = path-abempty    ; begins with "/" or is empty
                  / path-absolute   ; begins with "/" but not "//"
                  / path-noscheme   ; begins with a non-colon segment
                  / path-rootless   ; begins with a segment
                  / path-empty      ; zero characters

    path-abempty  = *( "/" segment )
    path-absolute = "/" [ segment-nz *( "/" segment ) ]

    segment       = *pchar
    segment-nz    = 1*pchar

The current definition in -11 [1] is

      http-URI = "http:" "//" authority path-abempty [ "?" query ]

One difference is that httpbis now allows
* http://www.example.com//foo
* http://www.example.com
as valid URIs (which is fine), but also allows http://www.example.com?foo
is that desired? Should it be changed to

      http-URI = "http:" "//" authority ( path-empty /
                                          1*( "/" segment) [ "?" query ] )
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Stefan Eissing | 5 Aug 2010 10:06
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Re: I-D Action:draft-nottingham-http-portal-00.txt

Interesting. "Network Auth Required" makes a lot of sense. It might also make sense to define a code for
"Network Access Denied", when a network provider does not allow traffic to certain subnets/hosts. This
is common in enterprise access to the outside world and some countries are known to implement such
measures as well. A 403 is not really the same.

I would not put this in the scope of the draft, but:

As for non-HTTP connections (POP/IMAP etc.): an alternative to hacking OS network stacks might be to
define a fixed URL where network restrictions can be retrieved. For example:

http://example.org/network

which serves a document listing restrictions (preferably human and machine readable). Owners of captive
portals could redirect such requests and provide their own answer, listing the restrictions currently
in place. It is then trivial to develop applications that check that url when the OS connects to a network.
(The question is who wants to operate the real server which gets bombarded with requests from
unrestricted networks? Anyone from akamai raises a hand?)

Just a thought.

Cheers, Stefan

Am 05.08.2010 um 08:11 schrieb Mark Nottingham:

> [ reply-to http list ]
> 
> FYI. There was an old discussion about this on the HTTP list, starting at
<http://www.w3.org/mid/76F49FF4-54D7-4917-85A3-A0D648E57C7E-4Ql+OMyaF4E <at> public.gmane.org>,
and I think it's time to do something about it.
>
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