Magnus Westerlund | 23 Feb 11:11
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Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

Hi Amir,

This question belong to the AVT mailing list not MMUSIC. If you respond 
please exclude the MMUSIC list.

The reason for not allowing the usage of single NAL unit packets and 
STAP-As in Interleaved mode is that they do not contain Decoding Order 
Numbers. To avoid the inconsistencies with some NALU having DON and 
other not, this restriction is in place. You will have to use STAP-B in 
interleaved mode to send a single NALU. This is the overhead you will 
have to pay for using interleaving mode.

I hope that clarifies things.

Cheers

Magnus

Amir Wolf wrote:
> Hi All,
> I have one question about the above draft related to packetization-mode.
> The draft specifies that when packetization-mode is set to 2 
> 
> single NAL unit packets and STAP-As MUST NOT be present in the stream.
> 
> I really don't understand this limitation, It is possible for a server
> to use MTAP when having small frames, though aggregating several frames
> in one RTP packet to fill the MTU size.
> 
> On the other hand, when getting a large frame, The server may use STAP-A
(Continue reading)

Gamze Seckin | 23 Feb 11:15
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rtp retransmission

Hi Colin,

what is the relation of the below draft to draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt  ?

thanks & br,

gamze

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts <at> ietf.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:10 PM
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title		: RTP Retransmission Using Reactive FEC
	Author(s)	: C. Perkins
	Filename	: draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-1-15
	
This memo describes how the RTP Payload Format for Generic Forward
Error Correction can be combined with the Extended RTP Profile for
RTCP-based Feedback to provide a solution for retransmission of lost
RTP packets. Such a retransmission format is expected to be useful to
improve the reliability of real-time applications with relaxed delay
bounds, for example non-interactive streaming audio/video.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-perkins-avt-rtp-reactive-fec-00.txt
(Continue reading)

Colin Perkins | 23 Feb 11:26

Re: rtp retransmission

On 23 Feb 2004, at 10:15, Gamze Seckin wrote:
> what is the relation of the below draft to 
> draft-ietf-avt-rtp-retransmission-10.txt  ?

My draft was an alternative proposal, as an attempt to avoid some of 
the IPR issues associated with the retransmission proposal.

Colin

_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Working Group
avt <at> ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

Magnus Westerlund | 23 Feb 13:37
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Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

Hi Amir,

Comments inlie, I would also like to point out that the lastes H.264 
draft is version 04.

Amir Wolf wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
> I understand, but I think it's wrong.
> As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I
> think we should enable an option that supports all packetization
> methods.

The problem is not deciding how a NALU is packetized. The problem is 
that for making the interleaved mode work, all NALUs on the receiver 
side must have a DON. We authors has considered if we could solve it by 
some rule on how to determine the DON for NALUs lacking a DON. However 
we could not find a relatively simple rule that would work satisfactory 
without restricting which NALUs that could be sent around it. Thus we 
selected to use the explicit and guaranteed to work method of requiring 
all NALUs to be assigned a DON by the sender and having it transported 
in the packet types that support such transport. If you can write such a 
rule, we would welcome it.

> In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one RTP packet
> for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it possible for AVC without
> special signaling.

Aggregation is supported in both Non-Interleaved and Interleaved Mode. 
The single NALU mode does not support aggregation due its intention of 
being very simple. Also the single NALU mode is sufficient for certain 
(Continue reading)

Amir Wolf | 23 Feb 12:13

RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

Hi Magnus,
I understand, but I think it's wrong.
As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I think we should enable an option that
supports all packetization methods.
In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one RTP packet for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it
possible for AVC without special signaling.
As 3GPP are going to adopt the above draft stating that Single NUL unit mode will be mandatory,
Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one of the
most advantages of the AVC.

Amir

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:12 PM
> To: Amir Wolf; mmusic (E-mail); IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
> 
> 
> Hi Amir,
> 
> This question belong to the AVT mailing list not MMUSIC. If 
> you respond 
> please exclude the MMUSIC list.
> 
> The reason for not allowing the usage of single NAL unit packets and 
> STAP-As in Interleaved mode is that they do not contain 
> Decoding Order 
> Numbers. To avoid the inconsistencies with some NALU having DON and 
> other not, this restriction is in place. You will have to use 
(Continue reading)

Magnus Westerlund | 23 Feb 14:12
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Re: ATRAC Family Payload update

Hi Matthew,

Here is some comments on the proposed update.

Matthew Romaine wrote:

> Magnus and the avt crew,
> 
> I have compiled comments thus far regarding the new ATRAC payload 
> format, and have attempted to resolve each issue.  Please let me know 
> if the responses are heading in the right direction.
> 
> Magnus wrote:  "There is need to resolve how the setup signalling for 
> this payload format will work. The normal model is that one defines a 
> MIME type..."
> 
> A few new sections have been added to the draft, which I have inserted 
> below.  Is this along the lines of what is needed?

Yes, you definitely need a MIME registration.  More comments about 
details inline. In general I thing all the required parameters needs a 
bit more text.

> 
> 5.1  ATRAC Family MIME Registraion
> 
>    The MIME subtype for the Adaptive TRansform Codec Family (ATRAC
>    Family) is allocated from the Vendor tree since ATRAC is intended to
>    be used with commercial products, and use of ATRAC requires a license
>    from Sony Corporation, the vendor.
(Continue reading)

Amir Wolf | 23 Feb 14:33

RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

comments Inline

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:37 PM
> To: Amir Wolf
> Cc: IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
>
>
> Hi Amir,
>
> Comments inlie, I would also like to point out that the lastes H.264
> draft is version 04.
>
> Amir Wolf wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > I understand, but I think it's wrong.
> > As any rtp packet contains the packetization method of the packet, I
> > think we should enable an option that supports all packetization
> > methods.
>
> The problem is not deciding how a NALU is packetized. The problem is
> that for making the interleaved mode work, all NALUs on the receiver
> side must have a DON. We authors has considered if we could
> solve it by
> some rule on how to determine the DON for NALUs lacking a
> DON. However
> we could not find a relatively simple rule that would work
> satisfactory
> without restricting which NALUs that could be sent around it. Thus we
> selected to use the explicit and guaranteed to work method of
> requiring
> all NALUs to be assigned a DON by the sender and having it
> transported
> in the packet types that support such transport. If you can
> write such a
> rule, we would welcome it.

Actually I can think of a very simple rule:

I think that MTAP's can also be used for Non-Interleaved mode - This is by sending NUL units of several pictures in decoding order

It will than require 2 more definitions of MTAP16-A, MTAP24-A, MTAP16-B and MTAP24-B.

Where MTAP's-A will not contain a DON.

The packetization-mode flag will than can have some more values with the distinction of Interleaved and non Interleaved mode, for example:

0- Single Nul unit

1- MTAP16-A and MTAP24-A and STAP-A and FU-A (and Single)

2- MTAP16-B and MTAP24-B and STAP-B and FU-B (and Single)

3-  (0-2)

 

The difference between MTAPs-A and STAP-A is very similar to the support of frame aggregation by rfc3016 which does not require additional signaling.

 


>
>
> > In addition, rfc 3016 enables aggregation of frames in one
> RTP packet
> > for MPEG4, I don't see why not making it possible for AVC without
> > special signaling.
>
> Aggregation is supported in both Non-Interleaved and
> Interleaved Mode.
> The single NALU mode does not support aggregation due its
> intention of
> being very simple. Also the single NALU mode is sufficient
> for certain
> use cases and applications. I understand that there is other
> use cases
> where aggregation is necessary. However due to the wide area of
> applications that the payload format is intended to support, we can't
> mandate that all functionality is implemented by all
> applications, while
> only a few needs certain application sets. The reason for
> making Single
> NALU mandatory is to ensure that at least on packetization mode is
> common for all applications that needs to negotiate. Those are the
> reasons why we have the Single NALU mode mandatory, Non-Interleave
> Recommended and Interleaved as optional.
>
> It is up to a certain application to decide what is
> appropriate for the
> application and in that context determine what modes that should or
> should not be implemented. If an application requires interleaving to
> work satisfactory, it is up to that application specification to make
> interleaving mandatory.
>
>
> > As 3GPP are going to adopt the above draft stating that
> Single NUL unit
> > mode will be mandatory, Non-Interleaved mode - Recommended and
> > Interleaved mode will be optional - We are loosing here one
> of the most
> > advantages of the AVC.
>
> If 3GPP in one of its applications needs aggregation, then make
> aggregation mandatory to implement. This is up to 3GPP to
> determine what
> there application requires. In fact I think that the 3GPP SA4 meeting
> will be discussing this very issue this week. If you look at the
> proposals over which packetization modes that will be required, some
> company proposes only single NALU mode, while others proposes
> either of
> the two others.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com
>
>
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has
> been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by
> replying to this transmission and delete the message without
> disclosing it. Thank you.
>
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>
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Magnus Westerlund | 23 Feb 15:26
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Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

Hi Amir,

Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was the overhead 
associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As. However as I 
understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in 
Non-Interleaved mode.

We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason why it is not 
included as I can find it is captured in this explanation by Miska:

"Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs without DON can 
be used is when several pictures (access units) are encapsulated in 
their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead 
compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires either a very low 
bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely. All the use 
cases presented in the specification require the use of DON with MTAPs. 
Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."

What is your opinion about this?

Cheers

Magnus

-- 

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
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This communication is confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review,
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Amir Wolf | 23 Feb 15:36

RE: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question

Well, 
Streaming AVC over GPRS networks requires a very low bitrate (about 30-40Kbps).
In order to get the maximum out of the network it is essential to aggregate pictures as the MTU still stands
around the 1500 bytes.
Amir

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 4:26 PM
> To: Amir Wolf
> Cc: IETF AVT WG
> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-h264-03.doc question
> 
> 
> Hi Amir,
> 
> Sorry, for misunderstanding. I thought the problem was the overhead 
> associated with using STAP-B, instead of using STAP-As. However as I 
> understand your problem is that you like to use MTAPs also in 
> Non-Interleaved mode.
> 
> We have discussed this setup among the authors. The reason 
> why it is not 
> included as I can find it is captured in this explanation by Miska:
> 
> "Regarding MTAPs with DON: The only scenario where MTAPs 
> without DON can 
> be used is when several pictures (access units) are encapsulated in 
> their decoding order to an MTAP to drop the packet header overhead 
> compared to STAP-based encapsulation. This requires either a very low 
> bitrate or large MTU size, neither of which is very likely. 
> All the use 
> cases presented in the specification require the use of DON 
> with MTAPs. 
> Thus, I suggest allowing MTAPs only with DON."
> 
> What is your opinion about this?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Magnus
> 
> -- 
> 
> Magnus Westerlund
> 
> Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                | Phone +46 8 4048287
> Torshamsgatan 23           | Fax   +46 8 7575550
> S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund <at> ericsson.com
> 
> 
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for 
> the addressee(s). Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
> distribution is prohibited. If you believe this message has 
> been sent to you in error, please notify the sender by 
> replying to this transmission and delete the message without 
> disclosing it. Thank you.
> 
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data 
> corruption, interruption, unauthorized amendment, tampering 
> and viruses, and we only send and receive e-mails on the 
> basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, 
> interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any 
> consequences thereof.
> 
> 

_______________________________________________
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Magnus Westerlund | 23 Feb 17:44
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Comments on draft-ietf-avt-rtcpssm-06.txt

Hi,

Here is my comments on the draft. They are mostly editorial, there are a 
few that are for discussion. see 8, 9, 13, 15, 17, 19, 20

1. You will need the new boilerplate according to RFC 3667 and RFC 3668.

2. The copyright misses any date.

3. The pages are missing the correct new-page charachters.

4. TOC: Chapter 17 is missing a space between title and number.

5. Chapter 5: Table with RTCP packet types. I think that XR is better 
called "Extended Reports" instead of "RTCP Extension".

6. You are missing two RTCP packet type in this table.
    FIR        full INTRA-frame request 192      [RFC2032]
    NACK       negative acknowledgement 193      [RFC2032]

7. Section 6.2, second paragraph: "MUST not" should be "MUST NOT"

8. Section 6.2, third paragraph: "All unicast data received on this
    port MUST be forwarded by the source to the group on the multicast
    RTCP channel."

Is it really intended that any received packets should be forwarded? If 
someone sends IP/UDP/FOO then it will be forwarded. Isn't this a 
problem. I think that RTCP has pretty good heuristics for checking that 
RTCP really is RTCP.

9. Section 7.1.3: The distribution buckets: Is it really intended that 
the buckets shall overlap? IF both ends of any given bucket is inclusive 
then any consecutive bucket will share one integer value of the bucket 
range. Also how does one resolve cases when the number of possible 
values are not even dividable between the buckets? I think that 
consistent rules for rounding is necessary.

10. Section 7.1.5: The second last sentence uses lower case "must" where 
I think it should be a "MUST".

11. Section 7.1.8: The length field. The definition is a bit confusing 
"For a DNS name,
       the length field indicates the number of 32-bit words making up
       the string plus 1 byte and any additional padding required to
       reach the next word boundary."

I would write it:
For a DNS name, the length field indicates the number of 32-bit words 
necessary for the string, and 1 octet of NULL termination. The address 
string is padded if not 32 bit aligned, see below.

12. Section 7.1.8: Address: If I understand it correctly, at least one 
character of NULL termination is required. Please write this out.

13. Section 7.1.9: Collision SSRC:
       "Each Collision SSRC is
       included repeatedly in Collision sub-report blocks and sent at
       least five times."

Didn't we in Minneapolis discuss this and come to the conclusion that we 
did not need to repeat it five times. Instead one reports it as long as 
the collision exist.

14. Section 7.1.9., collision SSRC, strange formatting on the last line 
of the paragraph.

15. Section 7.1.11: RTCP bandwidth:
      "This is a fraction value indicating a percentage of the
       session bandwidth, expressed as a fixed-point number with the
       binary point at the left edge of the field."

I think that session bandwidth is a bit unclear here, do you refer to 
the RTP session bandwidth or the total RTCP bandwidth?

16. Section 7.1.11: I think you should take a little more care to avoid 
splitting figures by page breaks.

17. Section 7.1.12: When is this expected to be used. When will any 
receiver in the RTP session not receive the SR of a sender? I think that 
  any SR will need to be forwarded to the receivers for synchronization 
reasons. Thus I do not understand why explicit notification of the 
number of senders are needed.

18. Section 7.2, third paragraph: "If both are included, the Receiver 
RTCP Bandwidth sub-report block MUST take precedence." Isn't SHALL a 
better word in this context?

19. Section 7.2, seventh paragraph: May a sender of sub-report block 
perform differentiated reporting using multiple report blocks, for 
example report your appendix example in this way.
sub-report 1
min 0
max 8
NDB=3

sub-report 2
min 9
max 19
NDB 11

sub-report 3
min 20
max 39
NDB 5

I think a sentence making this explicitly allowed or disallowed would be 
good.

20. Section 10.1: The SDP attribute is missing formal declaration, and 
registration. Is is allowed to be extended?

21. Section 11.7.1, bullet B. RTSP could also use S/MIME. Currently 
neither S/MIME nor TSL or SSL is defined for RTSP.

22. In the reference section all references from 10 and onwards are 
missing space between numbering and author.

23. Section 16.4. What is really X? When I read it I interpreted "X 
values indicate loss percentage reported," as meaning that X was 
expressed in X/100 packet losses, instead of the X/256 that it really 
is. Maybe not using "percentage" could make this clear.

24. IPR and Copyright Notice needs to use the new boiler plate from RFC 
3667 & 3668.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A
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Gmane