Peter Saint-Andre | 1 Dec 19:37
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Re: * was Re: Server Identity Verification in Application Protocols

My apologies once again for the delayed reply.

On 10/6/09 4:05 AM, tom.petch wrote:
> This specification disallows the use of * to wildcard the reference identity.
> 
> syslog over TLS not only uses this, but also allows the use of a wildcard
> where it would not be allowed in the subjectAltName.
> 
> I would see this as quite common in networking scenarios, where the access
> is many to many, and so would like a less severe prescription against it.

One approach would be to allow "profiling" of the rules in this spec.
For example, we could add text such as the following:

###

This specification defines several dimensions that are legitimately a
matter of application profiling:

   1. In the case of domain names, whether the reference identity can
contain the wildcard character '*' (ASCII 42) as the least significant
domain label (e.g., "*.example.com").

   2. In the case of domain names, whether the reference identity can
contain the wildcard character '*' (ASCII 42) as one of the characters
in the least significant domain label fragment (e.g., "foo*.example.com").

Application protocols that re-use this specification rather than define
their own certificate rules need to specify whether they allow wildcards
in the ways just described.
(Continue reading)

Peter Saint-Andre | 1 Dec 19:47
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Re: client was Re: Server Identity Verification in Application Protocols

On 10/14/09 9:11 AM, Kurt Zeilenga wrote:

> I would find it less objectionable for this I-D to simply say something
> like:
>    "This document details a process for client verification of the
> server's identity.  It is possibly that this process be used in server
> verification of a client's identity, however this document does not
> consider or detail how this might be done."

After thinking about Kurt's argument further and discussing the topic at
IETF 76, I agree that verification of client identities is out of scope
for this I-D. Interesting problem, but to be discussed elsewhere.

In my working copy, I have the following text:

      Note: This document applies only to server identities, only to
      TLS, and only to the PKI.  Similar considerations might apply to
      client identities (e.g., for mutual authentication), to security
      protocols such as [IPSEC] and [DTLS], and to keys or certificates
      created outside the context of the PKI (e.g., where a dependency
      on Certificate Revocation Lists or the Online Certificate Status
      Protocol might introduce unacceptable latency or denial of service
      attacks).  Indeed, some aspects of the encapsulation and
      verification rules provided in this document might apply to those
      scenarios, as well; however, those scenarios are outside the scope
      of this document and need to be addressed by separate
      specifications.

Peter

(Continue reading)

Mark Nottingham | 2 Dec 07:00
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draft-nottingham-http-link-relation-07 progress

Based on Last Call feedback, as well as discussions with members of the HTML5 WG, I've taken another pass at
this spec.

There's a complete change listing at the end of the spec, as well as a diff, but the biggest change is in the
registry itself; it now allows extension "fields" to be registered by third parties, to aid in deploying
applications that want to leverage the registry.

See:
  http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07.txt
and
  http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07-from-6.diff.html

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
Eran Hammer-Lahav | 2 Dec 08:30
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RE: draft-nottingham-http-link-relation-07 progress

Overall I like the use of 'well-defined' as qualifier instead of 'Commonly-used', and the fact a
registered relation type can be protocol specific. But the changes take away from the usefulness of the
registry by making it a suggestion, not a requirement for using short relation types.

> Section 4

> Link relation types can also be used to indicate that the target	
> resource has particular attributes, or exhibits particular	
> behaviours; for example, a "service" link implies that the identified	
> resource is part of a defined protocol (in this case, a service	
> description).

I would rather make it clear that this is a subjective description in the same way the 'type' attribute is
used. Relation types are not the proper way to provide metadata for *another* resource.

> Section 4.1
>
>   Well-defined relation types SHOULD be registered as tokens for
>   convenience and to promote reuse.  This specification establishes an
>   IANA registry of such relation types; see Section 6.2.

...

> 4.2.  Extension Relation Types
>
>   Applications that don't wish to register a relation type may use an
>   extension relation type, which is a URI [RFC3986] that uniquely
>   identifies the relation type.

This suggests that the entire registry is optional, even for non-URI (extension) relation types. That
(Continue reading)

John Panzer | 2 Dec 08:33
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Re: draft-nottingham-http-link-relation-07 progress

Why the change to case-insensitive comparisons for URIs used as link relations?  ("When extension relation types are compared, they MUST be compared as URIs in a case-insensitive fashion, character-by-character."


--
John Panzer / Google
jpanzer <at> google.com / abstractioneer.org / <at> jpanzer



On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot <at> mnot.net> wrote:
Based on Last Call feedback, as well as discussions with members of the HTML5 WG, I've taken another pass at this spec.

There's a complete change listing at the end of the spec, as well as a diff, but the biggest change is in the registry itself; it now allows extension "fields" to be registered by third parties, to aid in deploying applications that want to leverage the registry.

See:
 http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07.txt
and
 http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07-from-6.diff.html

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/

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Alexey Melnikov | 2 Dec 11:20
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Re: * was Re: Server Identity Verification in Application Protocols

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>My apologies once again for the delayed reply.
>
>On 10/6/09 4:05 AM, tom.petch wrote:
>  
>
>>This specification disallows the use of * to wildcard the reference identity.
>>
>>syslog over TLS not only uses this, but also allows the use of a wildcard
>>where it would not be allowed in the subjectAltName.
>>
>>I would see this as quite common in networking scenarios, where the access
>>is many to many, and so would like a less severe prescription against it.
>>    
>>
>One approach would be to allow "profiling" of the rules in this spec.
>For example, we could add text such as the following:
>
>###
>
>This specification defines several dimensions that are legitimately a
>matter of application profiling:
>
>   1. In the case of domain names, whether the reference identity can
>contain the wildcard character '*' (ASCII 42) as the least significant
>domain label (e.g., "*.example.com").
>
>   2. In the case of domain names, whether the reference identity can
>contain the wildcard character '*' (ASCII 42) as one of the characters
>in the least significant domain label fragment (e.g., "foo*.example.com").
>  
>
(with a regular participant hat on):
I am not sure that the 2nd choice should be recommended at all.
But your suggested text looks fine to me otherwise.

>Application protocols that re-use this specification rather than define
>their own certificate rules need to specify whether they allow wildcards
>in the ways just described.
>  
>
>###
>
>We might also want to say that such use of wildcards defaults is "not
>allowed" unless otherwise specified by the using protocol.
>  
>
This is fine as well.
Alexey Melnikov | 2 Dec 11:21
Favicon

Re: client was Re: Server Identity Verification in Application Protocols

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>On 10/14/09 9:11 AM, Kurt Zeilenga wrote:
>  
>
>>I would find it less objectionable for this I-D to simply say something
>>like:
>>   "This document details a process for client verification of the
>>server's identity.  It is possibly that this process be used in server
>>verification of a client's identity, however this document does not
>>consider or detail how this might be done."
>>    
>>
>After thinking about Kurt's argument further and discussing the topic at
>IETF 76, I agree that verification of client identities is out of scope
>for this I-D. Interesting problem, but to be discussed elsewhere.
>
>In my working copy, I have the following text:
>
>      Note: This document applies only to server identities, only to
>      TLS, and only to the PKI.  Similar considerations might apply to
>      client identities (e.g., for mutual authentication), to security
>      protocols such as [IPSEC] and [DTLS], and to keys or certificates
>      created outside the context of the PKI (e.g., where a dependency
>      on Certificate Revocation Lists or the Online Certificate Status
>      Protocol might introduce unacceptable latency or denial of service
>      attacks).  Indeed, some aspects of the encapsulation and
>      verification rules provided in this document might apply to those
>      scenarios, as well; however, those scenarios are outside the scope
>      of this document and need to be addressed by separate
>      specifications.
>
I like that.
Dave CROCKER | 2 Dec 15:08

Re: client was Re: Server Identity Verification in Application Protocols


Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>> In my working copy, I have the following text:
>>
>>      Note: This document applies only to server identities, only to
>>      TLS, and only to the PKI.  Similar considerations might apply to
>>      client identities (e.g., for mutual authentication), to security
>>      protocols such as [IPSEC] and [DTLS], and to keys or certificates
>>      created outside the context of the PKI (e.g., where a dependency
>>      on Certificate Revocation Lists or the Online Certificate Status
>>      Protocol might introduce unacceptable latency or denial of service
>>      attacks).  Indeed, some aspects of the encapsulation and
>>      verification rules provided in this document might apply to those
>>      scenarios, as well; however, those scenarios are outside the scope
>>      of this document and need to be addressed by separate
>>      specifications.
>>
> I like that.

The beginning of the paragraph says what is in scope.  The second half of the 
last sentence says that everything else is outside of scope.  So it might not be 
essential to clarify what:

    "some aspects of the encapsulation and verification rules provided in this 
document might apply to those scenarios"

means, but I do not understand it at all.  "aspect applies"  seems to be what is 
causing my confusion.

d/
--

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net
Jan Algermissen | 2 Dec 10:03
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Gravatar

Re: draft-nottingham-http-link-relation-07 progress


On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:33 AM, John Panzer wrote:

> Why the change to case-insensitive comparisons for URIs used as link  
> relations?  ("When extension relation types are compared, they MUST  
> be compared as URIs in a case-insensitive fashion, character-by- 
> character.")

Additional comment: isn't there a spec that can be referenced that  
specifies URI equality rules?

"When extension relation types are compared, they MUST be compared  
according to the equality rules defined by X"

Jan

>
>
> --
> John Panzer / Google
> jpanzer <at> google.com / abstractioneer.org / @jpanzer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot <at> mnot.net>  
> wrote:
> Based on Last Call feedback, as well as discussions with members of  
> the HTML5 WG, I've taken another pass at this spec.
>
> There's a complete change listing at the end of the spec, as well as  
> a diff, but the biggest change is in the registry itself; it now  
> allows extension "fields" to be registered by third parties, to aid  
> in deploying applications that want to leverage the registry.
>
> See:
>  http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07.txt
> and
>  http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-07-from-6.diff.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apps-Discuss mailing list
> Apps-Discuss <at> ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Apps-Discuss mailing list
> Apps-Discuss <at> ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen <at> acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------
Sandra Murphy | 2 Dec 02:41

review of draft-nottingham-site-meta-04


This is a review of draft-nottingham-site-meta-04

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
these comments just like any other last call comments.

This draft defines a new registry for applications that wish to use a 
well-known URI for some purpose, for example, a URI for a policy or 
metadata that would be specific to each application site.  A registry is 
needed to prevent conflicts among the URIs defined or conflicts with other 
resources.

I have no security concerns with the draft or the idea of a registry of 
well-known URIs.

Comments:

    Note that this specification defines neither how to determine the
    authority to use for a particular context, nor the scope of the
    metadata discovered by dereferencing the well-known URI; both should
    be defined by the application itself.

I'm not sure what "authority to use for a particular context", but I 
presume that it means that each application should consider the 
authorization model of who should have the authority to use the well-known 
URI at each host/site.  This sounds lke a general security concern, but it 
is not verbatim reflected in the security considerations section (the 
scope part is mentioned, not the "authority to use".)  Note: given that I 
say below that it would be impossible to be complete in the security 
concerns that might arise in any particular application, this is NOT a 
recommendation that the text should change.

Security Considerations section

As this is a definition of a registry, there's not much to be said about 
what the security considerations there might be.

The section notes two possible security concerns.  No statement is made 
about possible solutions to these security concerns.

The first is that access to the server might give an attacker the ability 
to modify what is stored at the URI.  Depending on the application and the 
way the well-known URI is used, that could represent a security concern, 
obviously.  There's nothing to be said here about solutions, given that 
the use is still to be defined.

The second possibility mentioned is DNS rebinding:

    Because most URI schemes rely on DNS to resolve names, they are
    vulnerable to "DNS rebinding" attacks, whereby a request can be
    directed to a server under the control of an attacker.

My understanding is that DNS rebinding allows the attacker to rebind a 
name it controls to a local address.  So it is the directing to a server 
that is under the control of the attacker, not the server itself.  I'm not 
sure that is what the text here is saying.  DNS rebinding here would be a 
concern if the well-known URI provided some access that would be useful to 
an attacker.  That would be a subject for the application to consider, so 
I'm not saying that it needs to be mentioned here.

Recommendations for protection against DNS rebinding have to do with the 
browser or the enterprise, not the application, so I don't think they need 
to be mentioned here.

I could see that there might be other ways that the existence of a 
well-known URI could be a concern, depending on how the application used 
that file (DDOS if the use caused transmission, exposure if the use caused 
access to sensitive data, whatever).  But I don't think that this document 
could possibly be complete in discussing all the security concerns these 
unknown applications with their unknown uses of the URI could have.

In general, I think this section could be replaced with just guidelines 
about what the specification of a new well-known URI should discuss or 
consider.  Consider the authorization model, consider corruption, 
exposure, etc. of the URI file, consider vulnerability to DNS rebinding 
attacks, etc.

IANA considerations section

The draft mentions several things that a specification of a new well-known 
URI should discuss or include. Is the IANA resonsible for ensuring that a 
specification for a new well-known URI meets the stipulations made here? 
Or maybe the Designated Expert does that?

--Sandy

Gmane