Enrico Marocco | 20 Jun 2013 12:02
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Raw interim minutes

Hi all,

here are the raw notes taken by Micheal (very detailed, thanks again
Micheal!). Please take a look and point out any inaccuracies.

Rich has already started a separate thread to address the only remaining
open point. Please comment on that as well, so that authors can produce
a final WG version of the document soon.

Enrico

********************************

ALTO interim meeting
June 19, 2013, 17:00-18:00 CET
Notetaker: Michael Scharf

Agenda (Enrico Marocco)
------

draft-ietf-alto-protococol (Richard Alimi)
--------------------------

* Changes in -16

* Slide 4: Item 1: IRD declaration

* Slide 5: Item 2: Update frequency

Enrico: Discuss this now or at the end of the presentation?
(Continue reading)

Richard Alimi | 20 Jun 2013 09:45

Clarifying Cost Map Dependencies on a Network Map

[ We would like to hear feedback on this.  We are planning to revise and submit a new version ASAP, so please voice opinions on this within the next few days, by Monday, June 24th. ]

Background:

Today, the ALTO protocol as a 'version tag' to indicate which version of a network map is used by a particular cost map.

In a particularly simple case, a single ALTO server is served by a single hostname (or IP address, whatever), and it exposes a single network map and one or more cost maps.  There is no ambiguity here - a client automatically knows that any version tag refers to the single network map that is hosted by the server.

There are two alternate scenarios where ambiguities arrive:

(Scenario 1) An IRD hosted by alto.isp1.example.com refers cost maps provided by some third-party, say alto.third-party.example.com.  In this scenario, do version tags exposed by alto.third-party.example.com correspond to the network map provided by alto.isp1.example.com?

(Scenario 2) A single ALTO server (single hostname) wishes to provide two different network maps (say, different levels of aggregation) and wants to provide cost maps for each of them.  Currently, the version tag accompanying a cost map is not sufficient for a client to determine which network map a particular cost map is based on.

Proposal:

To resolve these problems, we'd like to propose a simple change to the version tag accompanying the cost map - it would now include the URI to the network map in addition to an opaque ID.

OLD (what we have now):

{ "meta" : {}, "data" : { "cost-type" : {"cost-mode" : "numerical", "cost-metric": "routingcost"}, "map-vtag" : "1266506139", "map" : { "PID1": { "PID1": 1, "PID2": 5, "PID3": 10 }, "PID2": { "PID1": 5, "PID2": 1, "PID3": 15 }, "PID3": { "PID1": 20, "PID2": 15 } } } }

NEW PROPOSAL:

{ "meta" : {}, "data" : { "cost-type" : {"cost-mode" : "numerical", "cost-metric": "routingcost"}, "network-map" : { "uri": "http://alto.example.com/networkmap1" "vtag": "1266506139" } "map" : { "PID1": { "PID1": 1, "PID2": 5, "PID3": 10 }, "PID2": { "PID1": 5, "PID2": 1, "PID3": 15 }, "PID3": { "PID1": 20, "PID2": 15 } } } }

Compared to the current approach we have in draft -16 (which is for a version tag to be consistent within resources served by the same hostname), this has the following advantages:
- It provides a more flexible solution to Scenario 1
- It allows us to handle Scenario 2

An possible addition to this approach would be explicitly declare the dependency between the cost map and the network map in the IRD.

Feedback would be great.  The editors believe this would be a strong improvement to the draft.

Thanks,
Rich
<div><div dir="ltr">
<div><div>[ We would like to hear feedback on this. &nbsp;We are planning to revise and submit a new version ASAP, so please voice opinions on this within the next few days, by Monday, June 24th. ]</div></div>
<div>

<br>
</div>
<div>Background:</div>
<div><br></div>Today, the ALTO protocol as a 'version tag' to indicate which version of a network map is used by a particular cost map.<div><br></div>
<div>In a particularly simple case, a single ALTO server is served by a single hostname (or IP address, whatever), and it exposes a single network map and one or more cost maps. &nbsp;There is no ambiguity here - a client automatically knows that any version tag refers to the single network map that is hosted by the server.</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>There are two alternate scenarios where ambiguities arrive:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>(Scenario 1) An IRD hosted by <a href="http://alto.isp1.example.com">alto.isp1.example.com</a> refers cost maps provided by some third-party, say <a href="http://alto.third-party.example.com">alto.third-party.example.com</a>. &nbsp;In this scenario, do version tags exposed by <a href="http://alto.third-party.example.com">alto.third-party.example.com</a> correspond to the network map provided by <a href="http://alto.isp1.example.com">alto.isp1.example.com</a>?</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>(Scenario 2) A single ALTO server (single hostname) wishes to provide two different network maps (say, different levels of aggregation) and wants to provide cost maps for each of them. &nbsp;Currently, the version tag accompanying a cost map is not sufficient for a client to determine which network map a particular cost map is based on.</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>Proposal:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>To resolve these problems, we'd like to propose a simple change to the version tag accompanying the cost map - it would now include the URI to the network map in addition to an opaque ID.</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>OLD (what we have now):</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>{
 "meta" : {},
 "data" : {
   "cost-type" : {"cost-mode"  : "numerical",
                  "cost-metric": "routingcost"},
   "map-vtag"  : "1266506139",
   "map" : {
     "PID1": { "PID1": 1,  "PID2": 5,  "PID3": 10 },
     "PID2": { "PID1": 5,  "PID2": 1,  "PID3": 15 },
     "PID3": { "PID1": 20, "PID2": 15  }
   }
 }
}</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>NEW PROPOSAL:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div>{
 "meta" : {},
 "data" : {
   "cost-type" : {"cost-mode"  : "numerical",
                  "cost-metric": "routingcost"},
   "network-map" : {     "uri": "<a href="http://alto.example.com/networkmap1">http://alto.example.com/networkmap1</a>"

<span>     "vtag":</span><span> "1266506139"</span>

<span>     }</span>   "map" : {
     "PID1": { "PID1": 1,  "PID2": 5,  "PID3": 10 },
     "PID2": { "PID1": 5,  "PID2": 1,  "PID3": 15 },
     "PID3": { "PID1": 20, "PID2": 15  }
   }
 }
}</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Compared to the current approach we have in draft -16 (which is for a version tag to be consistent within resources served by the same hostname), this has the following advantages:<br>

- It provides a more flexible solution to Scenario 1</div>
<div>- It allows us to handle Scenario 2</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>An possible addition to this approach would be explicitly declare the dependency between the cost map and the network map in the IRD.</div>

<div><br></div>
<div>Feedback would be great. &nbsp;The editors believe this would be a strong improvement to the draft.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Rich</div>
</div>
</div></div>
Sebastian Kiesel | 19 Jun 2013 23:06
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draft-ietf-alto-protocol-16: introduction section

Dear all,

as discussed in the virtual interim today, I think the introduction
section should give crossrefs to the problem statement and requirements
RFCs at a prominent place.  Whether to repeat the problem statement
in different words or not, is indeed a question of taste. I don't think
it is neccessary but I dpn't object against the current text.
Cross-checking against the other two RFCs I see no contradictions.

So my proposal is to add something between the section titles of 
1. and 1.1., maybe:

1.  Introduction

The protocol specified in this document provides a solution for
the issues identified in the ALTO problem statement [RFC 5693].
It meets the requirements itemized in the ALTO requirements document
[RFC 6708]. A short, non-normative overview on the problem and the
solution approach is given in the following subsections.

1.1.  Background and Problem Statement

...

------------------------------------------------------------

One more comment about section 1.2.2, which says:

    For example, a peer-to-peer overlay application can use information
    provided by an ALTO Service to avoid selecting peers connected with
    low bandwidth links. 

ALTO and link bandwidth is a mine field - not impossible at all, but
difficult, see the long discussions we had, partly summarized in sec.
8.2.3 of draft-ietf-alto-deployments-06.  Therefore I think it would
be wise to use a less controversial example here, say:

    For example, a peer-to-peer overlay application can use information
    provided by an ALTO Service to avoid selecting peers connected via
    intercontinental (i.e., high-delay) links.

Thanks
Sebastian
Jan Seedorf | 19 Jun 2013 14:48
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Protocol update -16: Security Consideration Section

Dear all,

I read the latest version of the draft (-16), and I think it really is in good shape (apart from the open issues
we will discuss in the interim meeting later today). I had a closer look at the latest security
considerations section, and --- thanks to Sebastian and Hannes --- it is much better structured than
before and reads quite well. Below are some minor comments, all of these are small things and could
probably be addressed by adding a single sentence each to help make clearer to the reader what the security
considerations are:

-- 14.1.3. Limitations to Authenticity and Integrity
The text only talks about the URI of the IRD being compromised, which is (as discussed on this list) more a
problem of ALTO service discovery. But what about cases where the URI domain name is correct, but the ALTO
server itself has been compromised by malware? In that case, even TLS might not help. Is this an obvious
threat or should it be explicitly mentioned?

-- 14.3.2. Protection Strategies for Confidentiality
The previous section "risk scenarios" mentions 3 types of risks, but protection strategies are only
suggested for type 1 and type 2

-- 14.4.2 Protection Strategies for Privacy
Apart from using obfuscation techniques as suggested in the text, the ALTO client could also consider to
alternate between several ALTO server when querying for ALTO information (in cases where possible, i.e.
more than one ALTO server has the info and these ALTO servers are not expected to collude). This would not
help against an intercepting third party, but it would help somewhat against tracking at a single ALTO
server. Additionally, the classic solution of a mix-net-type solution comes to mind, where an ALTO
privacy service would act on behalf of many clients, hiding their identity. Should we add text on these
considerations (again, if obvious we should probably not mention it)?

-- 14.5.2 Protection Strategies for Availability
Against a DDoS attack with spoofed source IPs, a simple cookie mechanism (as used in IPSec to prevent
complex server computations caused by forged requests) could help. Of course, this would also need to be
specified in an extension document.

 	- Jan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alto-bounces <at> ietf.org [mailto:alto-bounces <at> ietf.org] On Behalf Of Y.
> Richard Yang
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:28 AM
> To: IETF ALTO
> Subject: [alto] Protocol update
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> We just posted a version to seek feedback. A diff of the changes can be
> found at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-alto-protocol-16
> 
> 
> Here are major changes:
> 
> 1. Network Map Version Tags
>    Changed Sec. 6.3 to mention the consistency discussions
> 
> 2. Mention cross Cost Map
>   Added a short section Sec. 6.4
> 
> 3. Add a short guideline section Sec. 8.3.6 on Refresh
> 
> 4. Changed to single media-type
>   Please see Sec. 8.5
> 
> 5. Other changes suggested per the mailing list.
> 
> Your feedback is greatly appreciated!
> 
> Richard
Vijay K. Gurbani | 11 Jun 2013 15:46
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Virtual interim meeting coordinates and agenda

All: As announced on the list [1], the ALTO virtual interim is
scheduled as follows:

   Wednesday, Jun 19 2013 10:00 AM US Central /
                          11:00 AM US Eastern /
                           8:00 AM US Pacific /
                           5:00 PM Paris, Rome, Frankfurt /
                           4:00 PM London
   Duration: 1 hour.

The call-in number and related logistics are below.

The agenda is to drive the protocol document to completion.  Here
are the details of the agenda:

Wed Jun 19 2013 ALTO Virtual Meeting Agenda
Chairs: Enrico Marocco and Vijay Gurbani

05m Chairs             Administrivia
45m ALTO protocol      ALTO Protocol issue discussion
     authors            Draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-
                               ietf-alto-protocol-16
10m Chairs/attendees   Wrap-up and next steps

The coordinates to join Webex are below:

Topic: ALTO
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013
Time: 8:00 am, Pacific Daylight Time (San Francisco, GMT-07:00)
Meeting Number: 645 607 733
Meeting Password: 1234

-------------------------------------------------------
To join the online meeting (Now from mobile devices!)
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1. Go to 
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2. If requested, enter your name and email address.
3. If a password is required, enter the meeting password: 1234
4. Click "Join".

To view in other time zones or languages, please click the link:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?ED=225532257&UID=1566983432&PW=NM2YyODZkY2Iy&ORT=MiM0

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To join the audio conference only
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Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-650-479-3208

Access code:645 607 733

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For assistance
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1. Go to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/mc
2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".

You can contact me at:
cmorgan <at> amsl.com
1-510-492-4085

To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft 
Outlook), click this link:
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The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files 
requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in 
the meeting, please check whether you have the players installed on your 
computer by going to https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/systemdiagnosis.php.

Sign up for a free trial of WebEx
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CCP:+16504793208x645607733#

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows 
audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during 
the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically 
consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, 
discuss your concerns with the meeting host prior to the start of the 
recording or do not join the session. Please note that any such 
recordings may be subject to discovery in the event of litigation.

Thanks,

- vijay
--

-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
Email: vkg <at> {bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani <at> alcatel-lucent.com
Web: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/  | Calendar: http://goo.gl/x3Ogq
The IESG | 6 Jun 2013 16:21
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Last Call: <draft-ietf-alto-server-discovery-08.txt> (ALTO Server Discovery) to Proposed Standard


The IESG has received a request from the Application-Layer Traffic
Optimization WG (alto) to consider the following document:
- 'ALTO Server Discovery'
  <draft-ietf-alto-server-discovery-08.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf <at> ietf.org mailing lists by 2013-06-20. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg <at> ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the
beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract

   The goal of Application-Layer Traffic Optimization (ALTO) is to
   provide guidance to applications that have to select one or several
   hosts from a set of candidates capable of providing a desired
   resource.  ALTO is realized by a client-server protocol.  Before an
   ALTO client can ask for guidance it needs to discover one or more
   ALTO servers that can provide suitable guidance.

   This document specifies a procedure for resource consumer initiated
   ALTO server discovery, which can be used if the ALTO client is
   embedded in the resource consumer.

The file can be obtained via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-alto-server-discovery/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-alto-server-discovery/ballot/

The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:

   http://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1952/

IESG Secretary | 3 Jun 2013 22:48
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ALTO WG Virtual Interim Meetig, June 19, 2013

This is to announce a virtual interim meeting for the ALTO Working
Group to take place on Wednesday, June 19, 2013 from 10:00 AM - 11:00
AM US Central (Chicago) time.

The goal of the meeting is to encourage real-time participation with
the anticipation of closing any lingering issues on the ALTO protocol.

A detailed agenda and logistic information will be sent out separately
to the ALTO WG mailing list. For the moment, the WG should pay close
attention to the latest version of the ALTO protocol draft:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-alto-protocol-16

Thank you.

Vijay K. Gurbani and Enrico Marocco
ALTO WG Co-chairs.
Vijay K. Gurbani | 3 Jun 2013 19:03
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Final date/time for ALTO virtual interim

All: Based on the poll responses received to date, the ALTO virtual
interim will be held on:

   Wednesday, Jun 19 2013 10:00 AM US Central /
                          11:00 AM US Eastern /
                           8:00 AM US Pacific /
                           5:00 PM Paris, Rome, Frankfurt /
                           4:00 PM London
   Duration: 1 hour.

Please mark your calendars.  Additional logistical information will
follow shortly.

Thanks,

- vijay
--

-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
Email: vkg <at> {bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani <at> alcatel-lucent.com
Web: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/  | Calendar: http://goo.gl/x3Ogq
Vijay K. Gurbani | 31 May 2013 15:25
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Reminder: ALTO WG Virtual Interim Meeting --- deciding the date and time

Folks: If you have not yet done so and are interested in attending
the ALTO virtual meeting, please go to the link below and indicate
your preferred time.

A poll has been opened up to decide when to hold the meeting.  The link
to the poll is:

    http://www.doodle.com/sgfn6ihask9rz58k

Please adjust for local time zones when answering the poll.

Please indicate your interest in attending the meeting by checking *ALL*
the times on the poll that you are available.  As soon as we have a
quorum, we will send out further information regarding logistics.

Please indicate your interest in attending the meeting by the end of
this week, i.e., by Sunday, June 2 2013.  That leaves us with enough
time to attend to the logistics of getting the meeting scheduled.

Thanks,

- vijay
--

-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
Email: vkg <at> {bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani <at> alcatel-lucent.com
Web: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/  | Calendar: http://goo.gl/x3Ogq
Vijay K. Gurbani | 29 May 2013 23:33
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ALTO WG Virtual Interim Meeting --- deciding the date and time

Folks: Enrico and I will like to hold a WG virtual interim meeting to
facilitate the protocol work to completion.

We believe that the WG is close to finishing the protocol work and it
will be conducive to get the attendant folks together to finalize the
remaining issues.

A poll has been opened up to decide when to hold the meeting.  The link
to the poll is:

    http://www.doodle.com/sgfn6ihask9rz58k

Please adjust for local time zones when answering the poll.

Please indicate your interest in attending the meeting by checking *ALL*
the times on the poll that you are available.  As soon as we have a
quorum, we will send out further information regarding logistics.

Please indicate your interest in attending the meeting by the end of
this week, i.e., by Sunday, June 1 2013.  That leaves us with enough
time to attend to the logistics of getting the meeting scheduled.

Thank you.

- vijay
--

-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60563 (USA)
Email: vkg <at> {bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani <at> alcatel-lucent.com
Web: http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/  | Calendar: http://goo.gl/x3Ogq
Wendy Roome | 23 May 2013 16:06
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Re: Draft 16

{6.3} says:

  "Two Network Maps are the same if (1) they are retrieved from the same
ALTO Server (i.e., same Hostname + Port) and (2) ...."

Isn't (1) overly restrictive?  That means an organization cannot run
multiple ALTO servers, on different hosts/ports, which share the same
network map and cost maps.

Yes, the last sentence of that paragraph says "If a logical ALTO Server is
implemented by multiple load balance servers with the same Hostname +
Port, the servers need to ensure the consistency." But isn't that
referring to a transparent load balancer, where the client always uses the
same host/port and has the illusion that it's a single server?

BTW, in {8.5.4}, the ALTO server at custom.alto.example.com presumably
uses the same network map as the server at alto.example.com in {8.5.3}.

I'm not sure how to resolve that without introducing some notion of ALTO
servers being "compatible". Maybe change the sentence to

	"Two Network Maps are the same if (1) they are retrieved from compatible
ALTO servers and (2) .... Two ALTO servers are compatible if one server's
Information Resource Directory {8.5} references services, including the
Information Resource Directory, provided by the other server."

	- Wendy Roome


Gmane