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spielfrieks | 1 May 2012 09:34
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File - For Sale Policy Text


Spielfrieks "For sale" Posting Guidelines

A For Sale ("[FS]") post is any message that is primarily meant to advertise games for direct sale or to draw
attention to an eBay auction or a "Games For Sale" web page.

First, let us point out that there is a separate mailing list at Yahoo Groups, Spielfrieks Marketplace,
which was established in April 2002 to serve as the "classified ads" of the Spielfrieks community.
Spielfrieks Marketplace can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spielfrieks-marketplace/

For Sale [FS] posts on Spielfrieks must follow these guidelines:

1. For Sale [FS] posts must be limited to one message per person per week.

2. No game should be advertised for sale more than once by the same seller. That is, if you say "I have Password
available for $50" then you shouldn't come back a week later and say "I have Password available for $5."

3. No posts should be made to remind everyone that a previously-announced eBay auction is soon ending.

4. Any For Sale [FS] posts (to either list) should be for Spielfrieky games -- not war games, not roleplaying
games, not CCGs, etc. Spielfrieky games are "sophisticated board and card games, with an emphasis on
German or European titles."

5. The [FS] tag must be used in the subject line so that those who do not want to read such posts can easily
delete them.

6. For Trade [FT] posts are subject to the same restrictions as For Sale [FS] posts.

Members who do not follow these guidelines on Spielfrieks will receive a warning, followed by more drastic
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Chris Kovac | 5 May 2012 21:33
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Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?


  So is this Kickstarter the new future of game design or just a fad which will fade within a year or two ? From my
undertanding Kickstarter is sold as a way for independant game designers to bypass all that messy
submission stuff to game designers and appeal directly to the game buyers.  If you like the game put some
money in and if enough think likewise the game is produced.  After having some talks on the subject with
people at the Gathering including players and game company representatives I am not sure whether
Kickstarter has long term feasibility.  Initially some interesting games will be published but also a lot
more vanity projects (trust me with the right sales pitch most of us can be sold any type of game be it good or
bad.  It has a bit of ponzi scheme feel to it in the sense i
 n that it relies on a constant or increasing group of investors to be successful.  When that group of
investors dries up or if a number of these game do not fufill investors expectations I have a feeling these
kickstarter backed games will dry up quickly.  So what what are your thoughts on kickstarter developed
games (good, bad or indifferent ?).

Chris Kovac
Toronto, Canada

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bruno faidutti | 5 May 2012 21:36
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Just one thing - I've bought five or six kickstarter games and, so far, all have been really good.

Le 5 mai 2012 à 21:33, Chris Kovac a écrit :

> 
>  So is this Kickstarter the new future of game design or just a fad which will fade within a year or two ? From my
undertanding Kickstarter is sold as a way for independant game designers to bypass all that messy
submission stuff to game designers and appeal directly to the game buyers.  If you like the game put some
money in and if enough think likewise the game is produced.  After having some talks on the subject with
people at the Gathering including players and game company representatives I am not sure whether
Kickstarter has long term feasibility.  Initially some interesting games will be published but also a lot
more vanity projects (trust me with the right sales pitch most of us can be sold any type of game be it good or
bad.  It has a bit of ponzi scheme feel to it in the sense in that it relies on a constant or increasing group of
investors to be successful.  When that group of investors dries up or if a number of these game do not fufill
investors expectations I have a feeling these kickstarter backed games will dry up quickly.  So what what
are your thoughts on kickstarter developed games (good, bad or indifferent ?).
> 
> Chris Kovac
> Toronto, Canada
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> To unsubscribe: spielfrieks-unsubscribe@... 
> To email the moderators: spielfrieks-owner@... 
> Spielfrieks on the web -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spielfrieks Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>
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Wurfel | 5 May 2012 21:53
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?


Ogre Designer's Edition by Steve Jackson Games — Kickstarter

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Kovac <chris.kovac@...>
To: spielfrieks <spielfrieks@...>
Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 3:33 pm
Subject: [spielfrieks] Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

  So is this Kickstarter the new future of game design or just a fad which will fade within a year or two ? From my
undertanding Kickstarter is sold as a way for independant game designers to bypass all that messy
submission stuff to game designers and appeal directly to the game buyers.  If you like the game put some
money in and if enough think likewise the game is produced.  After having some talks on the subject with
people at the Gathering including players and game company representatives I am not sure whether
Kickstarter has long term feasibility.  Initially some interesting games will be published but also a lot
more vanity projects (trust me with the right sales pitch most of us can be sold any type of game be it good or
bad.  It has a bit of ponzi scheme feel to it in the sense in that it relies on a constant or increasing group of
investors to be successful.  When that group of investors dries up or if a number of these game do not fufill
investors expectations I h ave a feeling these kickstarter backed games will dry up quickly.  So what what
are your thoughts on kickstarter developed games (good, bad or indifferent ?).

Chris Kovac
Toronto, Canada

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Kent Bunn | 5 May 2012 21:53
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RE: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

So far I've bought one "reprint" (Alien Frontiers) so I'd already played it,
and had a fair amount of confidence.  I just got my copy of Sunrise City,
and I haven't played it, so I can't comment on the quality.  In the next
month or so there's about 3 games I'll likely be going in as well, a couple
of which I'll be getting sight unseen, but they seem like they are playable.
I've also kicked in on a CD from a band I know too.

I think that the system is likely to stick around, and doesn't remind me of
a ponzi at all.  Sometimes it's being used as a funding mechanism for things
that aren't getting traction elsewhere.  Other times, it's being used as a
"pre-order" system for things that would be made anyhow.  And I'm optimistic
that it will even be one more channel for the industry to grow some, and we
can get exposure to new things we might not have ever heard of otherwise.

From: spielfrieks@...
[mailto:spielfrieks@...] On
Behalf Of bruno faidutti
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:37 PM
To: spielfrieks@...
Subject: Re: [spielfrieks] Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Just one thing - I've bought five or six kickstarter games and, so far, all
have been really good.

Le 5 mai 2012 à 21:33, Chris Kovac a écrit :

> 
> So is this Kickstarter the new future of game design or just a fad which
will fade within a year or two ? From my undertanding Kickstarter is sold as
a way for independant game designers to bypass all that messy submission
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Brian Leet | 6 May 2012 00:15
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

I'll agree with the others that this post mus-characterizes Kickstarter,
which makes it a difficult point to start a conversation. It certainly can
have downsides, but there are also upsides for both sides of the
transaction. I'm fairly confident that crowdfunding is not going away now.
Kickstarter may be replaced by other solutions depending on how it handles
the inevitable crises, but this is just a new option in increasingly
customized production and publication.

On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Kent Bunn <kentbunn@...> wrote:

> So far I've bought one "reprint" (Alien Frontiers) so I'd already played
> it,
> and had a fair amount of confidence.  I just got my copy of Sunrise City,
> and I haven't played it, so I can't comment on the quality.  In the next
> month or so there's about 3 games I'll likely be going in as well, a couple
> of which I'll be getting sight unseen, but they seem like they are
> playable.
> I've also kicked in on a CD from a band I know too.
>
>
>
> I think that the system is likely to stick around, and doesn't remind me of
> a ponzi at all.  Sometimes it's being used as a funding mechanism for
> things
> that aren't getting traction elsewhere.  Other times, it's being used as a
> "pre-order" system for things that would be made anyhow.  And I'm
> optimistic
> that it will even be one more channel for the industry to grow some, and we
> can get exposure to new things we might not have ever heard of otherwise.
>
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David Brain | 6 May 2012 00:46
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

On 05/05/2012 20:33, Chris Kovac wrote:
>   It has a bit of ponzi scheme feel to it in the sense in that it relies on a constant or increasing group of
investors to be successful.

That's a depressingly cynical view of it.   However, I do agree that one 
high-profile failure could potentially cause the idea to collapse.  Not 
to mention that Kickstarter themselves have expressed concern that 
because it has grown to such an extent, companies are trying to use it 
as a sort of pseudo-venture capital source rather than as a creative 
projects funder.

But as a crowd-funding model that has widened the information pool 
considerably, and has overcome one of the key hurdles for it (by 
establishing the principle of "no-risk investment"*) I think it has a 
lot going for it.  Certainly I have backed a number of projects that I 
wouldn't have even known about (and so far I have only backed one board 
game) and I'm pretty sure that's true of almost anyone who has wandered in.

*again, one high-profile fraud may well collapse the edifice, but the 
Kickstarter system does seem to have covered most of the obvious risk 
factors.

-- David Brain
London, UK

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Michael Svellov | 6 May 2012 09:13
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

Both.
30-40 years ago some publishers decided which games to publish based upon questionaires. The next step was
to ask for money in advanced (P500 and similar projects) and now we have people funding projects from day 0.

I don't see any reason why these differnt ways of rasing interest and money cannot exist alongside each
other together with traditional publishing - which the vast majority of games has always used!

> From my undertanding Kickstarter is sold as a way
> for independant game designers to bypass all that
> messy submission stuff to game designers and
> appeal directly to the game buyers

Is the International Game Days in Essen a fad or the way of the future?
Many designers have used the fair to flog their own games, including Alan Moon (White Star) and Martin
Wallace (Warfrog). Yet, very few see this way of publishing as their end goal. They ***all*** prefer to
sell their designs to a 'proper' publisher - even John Bohrer.

A few designers are content with flogging their own games as a hobby, and if they can raise money for it
through Kickstarter or other similar sites, then fine.

Mik

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Josh Bluestein | 7 May 2012 15:16
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

My opinions on Kickstarter (and I know you all have just been waiting for
me to step in here):

Frankly, they're mixed.  On the one hand, Kickstarter and other
crowdfunding sites are an excellent way to get financing through new
channels. On the other hand, based on my personal experience with
Kickstarter games, it's pretty clear that some of what is getting produced
is not really all that great.

My personal stats:  of the seven Kickstarter-produced games that I've
played, I would say that I've found one that I thought was great, two that
were pretty good, two that were so-so and two that were worse than that.  I
do have Sunrise City on deck, and I'm hoping to be able to add another
title to the 'great' category, but I'm definitely being forced to rethink
my relationship with the Kickstarter process.

First of all, let's set aside the reprint question -- games like Glory to
Rome and Ogre have a couple of things going for them that most of the other
crop of Kickstarter games do not:  they've already been out in the market,
and people have been playing them for years (decades, in some cases).

What I'm more concerned about is the other end of the spectrum:  what
Kickstarter does is offers the opportunity for anyone with a game idea to
go out and seek funding without having to submit to the process of
editorial review, playtesting, or any of the other processes that are a
normal part of selling a game to a major (or minor) publisher.  Or, in some
cases, you could even have games that have been through that process and
failed to gain traction with any game publishers, possibly because the game
has serious flaws.
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Peter Clinch | 8 May 2012 10:30
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Re: Kickstarter - Way of the Future or Just a Fad ?

On 05/05/12 20:33, Chris Kovac wrote:
>
> So is this Kickstarter the new future of game design or just a fad
> which will fade within a year or two ?

An observation of Big New Things across many walks of life, hobbies, 
business models etc...

The Big New Thing is generally announced and hyped up (often not by the 
people behind it) as sweeping all before it.  it doesn't sweep all 
before it, but is taken up by a fair number of folk behind the hype and 
used where it works well and is appropriate.  It superficially seems to 
have vanished from the mainstream after not living up to its initial 
hype, but after a while you notice a lot of folk are using it alongside 
traditional models and it becomes normal and traditional itself.

I suspect Kickstarter and similar will follow this route.  It isn't 
/the/ answer to funding, but it is *an* answer to some funding.

I only have one Kickstarter game, Flash Point: Fire Rescue.  Being a 
single data point it's no use statistically as to how good the model is 
for game production, but it's a fine game!

Pete.
--

-- 
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@...     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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