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Bob Burton | 17 Nov 2005 01:21

Re: A little progress

--- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "Doug Lee" <d_funny007 <at> y...> wrote:
>
> Last night I changed my alg for "Case #13 with a bar".

Changed it to what?

~ Bob
Team [zb]

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Bob Burton | 17 Nov 2005 02:12

Slow progress

Hey all,

Homework has been getting to me.

I learned Case #6 I think.  It's 6 or 7.. it doesn't matter because
now I know both. ;)  This brings me below the 200 mark.  Yes, that's
right.  Less than 200 ZBF2L algs left to go. :D

~ Bob
Team [zb]

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cmhardw | 17 Nov 2005 03:03
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Messing around with transformation solving

Hey everyone,

I just did an average using transformations sometimes instead of
always COLL when I don't know the ZBLL algs for the COLL case.

Basically, on my slowest COLL cases I do the transformation into T
instead of COLL, since the transformations are all suney type algs and
the T is a ZBLL alg.

17.24, 17.52, 17.46, (14.44), 21.18, (30.01), 16.94, 19.01, 18.94,
22.21, 18.55, 16.20 = 18.52

The 16.94 was actually transforming either an S or AS orientation into
T then doing the T alg.  Some solves were straight ZB, some were fast
COLL.  The 16.20 at the very end was a straight ZB solve, I knew the
ZBLL case, and I think 1 of the 17's also.

I kind of like this, since some of my COLL cases are horrible, and I
think it might be faster to do the transformation then a T alg.

I'm going to mess around with this some more, but even with only
beginning to do this I can get sub-19 with it.  I think this method
will definitely be worth considering for when you know a full
orientation case.

I don't mean to brag here, I'm not trying to rub in knowing the T
orientation.  I just know that you guys will all be to this point very
shortly, so I'm trying to mess around with new techniques and
hopefully you guys will know a really good strategy for handling your
non-ZBLL case solves better than COLL/PLL by the time you get her.  I
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mgwallisa | 17 Nov 2005 04:50
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

--- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "cmhardw" <foozman17 <at> h...> wrote:
 I
> definitely agree with Mike that COLL/EPLL is not a good LL 
strategy in
> the long run, so I'm trying to find new things as well.  Mike I do
> remember those posts on the regular speedsolving group a while 
back,
> and though I disagreed then I have come to agree now with more 
practice.
> 
> Chris
>

Could you expand on why you believe this.  I started learning COLL 
this week,  with the intention of spending a few weeks learning the 
algorithms,  then a few weeks with a some ZBF2L cases.  I guess 
that's VH.  I was thinking this would be a good starting point to 
begin learning ZBLL in mid-January.  Do you think my time would be 
better spent learning a full ZBLL case and transforming what I don't 
know from the start,  or should knowing COLL be a prerequisite to 
ZBLL,  even without a long-term value?  Thanks.

Matt

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cmhardw | 17 Nov 2005 05:11
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

Hey Matt,

I guess I should have clarified a little more ;-)

COLL/EPLL is extremely fast, and I think when you factor in the 1/12
chance to skip EPLL that it might be faster than most people's OLL/PLL
combos.  I think a really good OLL/PLL set of algs though would
probably win out.

What I don't like is getting a slow COLL case, and ending with a Z
permutation.  As weird as that sounds, and as much as I like the Z
perm in my solving, it is my slowest and longest EPLL alg.  That
double combination can mean a slow LL time compared to the average
COLL/PLL gives you.

On this page: http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/zbstats.html

I have twice done a 100 cube average that shows the number of moves
used in COLL/PLL finish.

I get that, including the EPLL skips, COLL/PLL averages 21.12 moves on
average.  I think Fridrich averages around 19-20 as well so they are
fairly close.  The problem though, for me, is that keeping the edges
oriented for some CLL cases means a slow alg.

Having said that though I have managed sub-17 averages using COLL/PLL
on ZBLL cases that I don't know.  I am certain I have had a full 12
cube sub-17 average that only had EPLL skips for the ZBLL stuff,
meaning that sub-17 is definitely possible.
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Doug Lee | 17 Nov 2005 05:29
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Re: A little progress

I was doing it intuitively using (U)(F'UF)U2(FR'F'R) instead of the 
very fast way that is listed on Chris's site:

I think it was (d)(R'FR)U(R'F'R).

-Doug

--- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "Bob Burton" <bob <at> c...> wrote:
>
> --- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "Doug Lee" <d_funny007 <at> y...> 
wrote:
> >
> > Last night I changed my alg for "Case #13 with a bar".
> 
> Changed it to what?
> 
> ~ Bob
> Team [zb]
>

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Doug Lee | 17 Nov 2005 05:38
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

I think COLL/EPLL *is* okay for the long run. I pay enough attention 
doing COLL that I won't get H perm or Z perm. (By mirroring or 
inverting algs as needed.)

And but this point I'm sure you aren't implying that everybody should 
be learning ZB in the same order you and DanH have it layed out. 
Though in hindsight T and U are excellent ones to start off with due 
to their ease of recognition.

And yes, the S-Orientation is a total beast.

-Doug

> I don't mean to brag here, I'm not trying to rub in knowing the T
> orientation.  I just know that you guys will all be to this point 
very
> shortly, so I'm trying to mess around with new techniques and
> hopefully you guys will know a really good strategy for handling your
> non-ZBLL case solves better than COLL/PLL by the time you get her.  I
> definitely agree with Mike that COLL/EPLL is not a good LL strategy 
in
> the long run, so I'm trying to find new things as well.

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cmhardw | 17 Nov 2005 05:45
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

> I think COLL/EPLL *is* okay for the long run. I pay enough attention 
> doing COLL that I won't get H perm or Z perm. (By mirroring or 
> inverting algs as needed.)
>
>
> 
> -Doug

I definitely agree that using multiple algs for some of the COLL case
making a more advanced COLL set would be very, very fast.  I guess I
was referring to just knowing one alg per case which is what I do.  I
think that can definitely be improved on.

Chris

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Doug Lee | 17 Nov 2005 05:44
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

I'd recommend learning COLL first. At least you can use it in every 
ZBF2L solve. And you can OLL in cases where you don't ZBF2L it.

Learning specific groups of ZBLL means that you don't get to see it 
much, thus you hardly ever use it (unless you transform to it like 
Chris does). This means that it would be harder to retain. It's 
easier to retain algs that you use more frequently. If you learn 
COLL first, I think you'll start to understand the types of 
recognition tricks involved for ZBLL (if that is your final goal).

-Doug

--- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "mgwallisa" <mattwallisa <at> m...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "cmhardw" <foozman17 <at> h...> wrote:
>  I
> > definitely agree with Mike that COLL/EPLL is not a good LL 
> strategy in
> > the long run, so I'm trying to find new things as well.  Mike I 
do
> > remember those posts on the regular speedsolving group a while 
> back,
> > and though I disagreed then I have come to agree now with more 
> practice.
> > 
> > Chris
> >
> 
> Could you expand on why you believe this.  I started learning COLL
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Doug Lee | 17 Nov 2005 05:50
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Re: Messing around with transformation solving

I have been transforming cases as well.

When I get to the LL I will flip edges if I haven't already.
Then I solve the corner permutation using one of two pre-picked 
COLLs. (The fastest ones I know for adj swap and diag swap, resp.)
If it is a PLL, I'll solve it straight up since I still need work on 
my PLL. (I only recently mastered... ok maybe not mastered, PLL. 
Like only a bit over a year.)
Else, I do a single Sune (also in pre-picked grippings) to get it 
into the S-Orientation if it is not already.

This way I get to practice my S-Orientation cases (those w/o CP).

I pre-pick all my grippings to ensure uniform randomness.

-Doug Li

--- In zbmethod <at> yahoogroups.com, "cmhardw" <foozman17 <at> h...> wrote:
>
> Hey Matt,
> 
> I guess I should have clarified a little more ;-)
> 
> COLL/EPLL is extremely fast, and I think when you factor in the 
1/12
> chance to skip EPLL that it might be faster than most people's 
OLL/PLL
> combos.  I think a really good OLL/PLL set of algs though would
> probably win out.
>
(Continue reading)

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