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jimdavistx | 3 Feb 2012 01:10
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1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

Hi all,

The "Private Companies" section of the 1870 rules states: "A player may purchase a private company from
another player during a stock round for any mutually agreed upon price".

One game, a couple of players decided to buy and sell a private back and forth in early SRs for the sole purpose
of transferring cash between the two players (the original owner ended up with the private back in his hands).

While this is clearly legal according to the stated rule, we regard it as an exploitation of the rules and are
debating creation of a "house rule" to prevent it.  

We were curious if this has come up before in other 18xx gaming circles, and what the resolution was, if any.

Thanks,
Jim Davis

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Beard, Bruce D. | 3 Feb 2012 02:28

RE: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I have played 1870 hundreds of times and I have never seen this happen.  Indeed, I think I seen privates sold
between players in only about 1% of games.
-Bruce

________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of jimdavistx [jimdavistx1@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:10 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

Hi all,

The "Private Companies" section of the 1870 rules states: "A player may purchase a private company from
another player during a stock round for any mutually agreed upon price".

One game, a couple of players decided to buy and sell a private back and forth in early SRs for the sole purpose
of transferring cash between the two players (the original owner ended up with the private back in his hands).

While this is clearly legal according to the stated rule, we regard it as an exploitation of the rules and are
debating creation of a "house rule" to prevent it.

We were curious if this has come up before in other 18xx gaming circles, and what the resolution was, if any.

Thanks,
Jim Davis

------------------------------------

This is a message from the 18xx mailing list.Yahoo! Groups Links
(Continue reading)

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Dutton, Richard | 3 Feb 2012 04:20
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RE: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

It happens occasionally here in Chicago, usually when one player has the bridge company and someone else
wants to start a RR with it.  

Rick

________________________________

From: 18xx@... on behalf of Beard, Bruce D.
Sent: Thu 2/2/2012 7:28 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: RE: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I have played 1870 hundreds of times and I have never seen this happen.  Indeed, I think I seen privates sold
between players in only about 1% of games.
-Bruce

________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of jimdavistx [jimdavistx1@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:10 PM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

Hi all,

The "Private Companies" section of the 1870 rules states: "A player may purchase a private company from
another player during a stock round for any mutually agreed upon price".

One game, a couple of players decided to buy and sell a private back and forth in early SRs for the sole purpose
of transferring cash between the two players (the original owner ended up with the private back in his hands).
(Continue reading)

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Mike Coyne | 3 Feb 2012 09:01
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Re: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR


I have rarely seen a private company sold between players in 1870, but it has happened. However, if I saw what
you are describing, where it gets swapped back and forth, and doesn't really change hands, just to give
someone more money I would find that very dodgy, and might consider dropping out of a game with that much
collusion between two players.

Mike Coyne
mpcoyne@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Dutton, Richard <r.dutton@...>
To: 18xx <18xx@...>
Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 10:20 pm
Subject: RE: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

It happens occasionally here in Chicago, usually when one player has the bridge 
ompany and someone else wants to start a RR with it.  

ick
________________________________
From: 18xx@... on behalf of Beard, Bruce D.
ent: Thu 2/2/2012 7:28 PM
o: 18xx@...
ubject: RE: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I have played 1870 hundreds of times and I have never seen this happen.  Indeed, 
 think I seen privates sold between players in only about 1% of games.
Bruce
________________________________
rom: 18xx@...
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JC Lawrence | 3 Feb 2012 09:42
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Re: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I would consider such a set of collusive transactions acceptable if _all_ participating players could be
reasonably considered to benefit by the transactions.

-- JCL (mobile)

On Feb 3, 2012, at 0:01, Mike Coyne <mpcoyne@...> wrote:

> 
> I have rarely seen a private company sold between players in 1870, but it has happened. However, if I saw
what you are describing, where it gets swapped back and forth, and doesn't really change hands, just to
give someone more money I would find that very dodgy, and might consider dropping out of a game with that
much collusion between two players.
> 
> 
> Mike Coyne
> mpcoyne@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dutton, Richard <r.dutton@...>
> To: 18xx <18xx@...>
> Sent: Thu, Feb 2, 2012 10:20 pm
> Subject: RE: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR
> 
> 
> It happens occasionally here in Chicago, usually when one player has the bridge 
> ompany and someone else wants to start a RR with it.  
>
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Mike Coyne | 3 Feb 2012 10:16
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Re: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR


I'll agree with that, but I have to say I have a hard time visualizing how it could actually play out. Then
again, that's what this group is for, so here is your exercise for the day :

Propose a scenario that fits JCL's definition: how does swapping a private company back and forth between
two (or more) players, for the purpose of giving one player more money while leaving the pivate company
ultimately in the possession of the origianl owner, result in a benefit to all involved?

Having said it was hard to visualize, I just thought of one: I might pay a bribe to another player using this
method in order to have them play the open port token in a city I will use for a lot of my runs.

Any others?

Mike Coyne
mpcoyne@...

-----Original Message-----
From: JC Lawrence <claw@...>
To: 18xx <18xx@...>
Sent: Fri, Feb 3, 2012 3:42 am
Subject: Re: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I would consider such a set of collusive transactions acceptable if _all_ 
articipating players could be reasonably considered to benefit by the 
ransactions.
-- JCL (mobile)
On Feb 3, 2012, at 0:01, Mike Coyne <mpcoyne@...> wrote:
> 
 I have rarely seen a private company sold between players in 1870, but it has 
appened. However, if I saw what you are describing, where it gets swapped back
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Richard Clyne | 3 Feb 2012 11:04

Re: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

The one that springs to mind is something like - I'll help you float your company and in return you give me some
money next share dealing round.  The private is used to transfer money.  Not seen it happen in any game but
nothing forbids it in 1870 (and a lot of other titles)

The difficult bit is working out a fair amount.

Richard
On 3 Feb 2012, at 09:16, Mike Coyne wrote:

> 
> I'll agree with that, but I have to say I have a hard time visualizing how it could actually play out. Then
again, that's what this group is for, so here is your exercise for the day :
> 
> Propose a scenario that fits JCL's definition: how does swapping a private company back and forth between
two (or more) players, for the purpose of giving one player more money while leaving the pivate company
ultimately in the possession of the origianl owner, result in a benefit to all involved?
> 
> Having said it was hard to visualize, I just thought of one: I might pay a bribe to another player using this
method in order to have them play the open port token in a city I will use for a lot of my runs.
> 
> Any others?
> 
> 
> Mike Coyne
> mpcoyne@...
> 
> 

------------------------------------
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Daniel Victor | 3 Feb 2012 11:50
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Re: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

That wouldn't have stopped you in the past !
              Cheers,Danny Victor

________________________________
 From: Richard Clyne <richard@...>
To: 18xx@... 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012, 10:04
Subject: Re: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

  
The one that springs to mind is something like - I'll help you float your company and in return you give me some
money next share dealing round.  The private is used to transfer money.  Not seen it happen in any game but
nothing forbids it in 1870 (and a lot of other titles)

The difficult bit is working out a fair amount.

Richard
On 3 Feb 2012, at 09:16, Mike Coyne wrote:

> 
> I'll agree with that, but I have to say I have a hard time visualizing how it could actually play out. Then
again, that's what this group is for, so here is your exercise for the day :
> 
> Propose a scenario that fits JCL's definition: how does swapping a private company back and forth between
two (or more) players, for the purpose of giving one player more money while leaving the pivate company
ultimately in the possession of the origianl owner, result in a benefit to all involved?
> 
> Having said it was hard to visualize, I just thought of one: I might pay a bribe to another player using this
method in order to have them play the open port token in a city I will use for a lot of my runs.
>
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Beard, Bruce D. | 3 Feb 2012 13:09

RE: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

In SR 1 I end with $60 and you end with $20.  We switch the GRSC to give me enough money to buy an extra share and you
get the $5 income.  Each succeeding round we do similar things.  We both end up with more paying shares early
because we turn our spare change into shares.

-Bruce

________________________________
From: 18xx@...
[18xx@...] On Behalf Of Mike Coyne [mpcoyne@...]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:16 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I'll agree with that, but I have to say I have a hard time visualizing how it could actually play out. Then
again, that's what this group is for, so here is your exercise for the day :

Propose a scenario that fits JCL's definition: how does swapping a private company back and forth between
two (or more) players, for the purpose of giving one player more money while leaving the pivate company
ultimately in the possession of the origianl owner, result in a benefit to all involved?

Having said it was hard to visualize, I just thought of one: I might pay a bribe to another player using this
method in order to have them play the open port token in a city I will use for a lot of my runs.

Any others?

Mike Coyne
mpcoyne@...<mailto:mpcoyne%40aol.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: JC Lawrence <claw@...<mailto:claw%40kanga.nu>>
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Dutton, Richard | 3 Feb 2012 13:18
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RE: 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

My guess is that it lets one more company open at the start of the game,
providing shares for all to buy, or more track development, or the like.

Rick

From: 18xx@...
[mailto:18xx@...] On Behalf Of
Mike Coyne
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:17 AM
To: 18xx@...
Subject: Re: [18xx] 1870 rule comment -- selling privates during SR

I'll agree with that, but I have to say I have a hard time visualizing
how it could actually play out. Then again, that's what this group is
for, so here is your exercise for the day :

Propose a scenario that fits JCL's definition: how does swapping a
private company back and forth between two (or more) players, for the
purpose of giving one player more money while leaving the pivate company
ultimately in the possession of the origianl owner, result in a benefit
to all involved?

Having said it was hard to visualize, I just thought of one: I might pay
a bribe to another player using this method in order to have them play
the open port token in a city I will use for a lot of my runs.

Any others?

Mike Coyne
mpcoyne@... <mailto:mpcoyne%40aol.com>
(Continue reading)

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