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Mike FABIAN | 5 Dec 2003 15:11
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Re: problem startup xemacs 21.4 SuSE Linux 9.0

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen <at> xemacs.org> さんは書きました:

>>>>>> "philipp" == philipp sutter <sutter <at> ecology.at> writes:
>
>     philipp> I have the very same problem. and I posted this problem
>     philipp> allready. but no hint.
>
> You probably have two copies of the APEL package installed on your
> load-path.  This is called "shadowing."
>
> Use M-x list-load-path-shadows to find shadows.
>
> Typically this occurs in Linux distros which attempt to support
> distro-specific external packages by manipulating the load-path
> directly.  You may need to ask SuSE how to avoid picking up an APEL
> package that was installed to support GNU Emacs.

It is not for GNU Emacs actually, it is for XEmacs. It is a newer apel
required by the mail user agent "Wanderlust".

Alexander apparently has this apel-xemacs.rpm package installed, which
is intended to make recent versions of "Wanderlust" (package
wl-xemacs.rpm on SuSE Linux 9.0) work correctly.

apel-xemacs.rpm lives in /usr/share/xemacs/site-packages/ and
therefore shadows the apel in /usr/share/xemacs/xemacs-packages/ which
comes from the Sumos (xemacs-packages.rpm on SuSE Linux 9.0).

As soon as the apel in the Sumos is updated to a sufficiently recent
version, we could drop the additional apel-xemacs package again.
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Stephen J. Turnbull | 6 Dec 2003 07:15
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Re: problem startup xemacs 21.4 SuSE Linux 9.0

>>>>> "Mike" == Mike FABIAN <mfabian <at> suse.de> writes:

    Mike> It is not for GNU Emacs actually, it is for XEmacs. It is a
    Mike> newer apel required by the mail user agent "Wanderlust".

So much the worse for Wanderlust.  :-(

    Mike> As soon as the apel in the Sumos is updated to a
    Mike> sufficiently recent version, we could drop the additional
    Mike> apel-xemacs package again.

I don't know when this will happen, because APEL is likely to be
deprecated.  It cannot be correctly distributed as a binary any more,
because by design it must be compiled for a specific version of
Emacs.  Recently this has caused both forward (conflicts with
built-ins if built with an older version of XEmacs) and backward
(missing functions if build with a new version of XEmacs)
compatibility problems.  It also suffers from load-order problems (eg,
conflicting with fsf-compat).

    Mike> The other solution would be to remove apel completely from
    Mike> the Sumos, than one could always have the latest apel as an
    Mike> external package.

No, one can't, unless one is willing to match their Emacs to the APEL
they have installed.  However, that is probably the path we'll
eventually follow.

Sorry for the bad news.
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Mike FABIAN | 10 Dec 2003 12:04
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Re: problem startup xemacs 21.4 SuSE Linux 9.0

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen <at> xemacs.org> さんは書きました:

>     Mike> The other solution would be to remove apel completely from
>     Mike> the Sumos, than one could always have the latest apel as an
>     Mike> external package.
>
> No, one can't, unless one is willing to match their Emacs to the APEL
> they have installed.

That's no big problem, the APEL from apel-xemacs.rpm will have been
build against the XEmacs from xemacs.rpm, i.e. they will match
if one is using both packages from the same SuSE Linux distribution.

And for those who build their XEmacs from source it should also be
no problem to build their APEL using that XEmacs. 

> However, that is probably the path we'll eventually follow.
>
> Sorry for the bad news.

This isn't bad news actually. According to what I heard so far, this
is the only path which is likely to work without causing extra
problems.

--

-- 
Mike FABIAN   <mfabian <at> suse.de>   http://www.suse.de/~mfabian
睡眠不足はいい仕事の敵だ。
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Richard Martin | 10 Dec 2003 14:50
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Compile and efs

Hi,

I am having a little trouble with compile and efs. I am using a remote
machine to compile and my own to edit the code. The code is cross
mounted across both machines. The problem is when I compile on the
remote machine and I try to go to an error xemacs starts efs and ftps
the file from the remote machine - even though I can it can load is
locally. Is there a way to get efs to try and look for the file locally?

Thanks
Richard
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Stephen J. Turnbull | 11 Dec 2003 05:39
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Re: problem startup xemacs 21.4 SuSE Linux 9.0

>>>>> "Mike" == Mike FABIAN <mfabian <at> suse.de> writes:

    Mike> "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen <at> xemacs.org> さんは書きました:

    Mike> The other solution would be to remove apel completely from
    Mike> the Sumos, than one could always have the latest apel as an
    Mike> external package.

    >> No, one can't, unless one is willing to match their Emacs to
    >> the APEL they have installed.

    Mike> That's no big problem, the APEL from apel-xemacs.rpm will
    Mike> have been build against the XEmacs from xemacs.rpm,
    Mike> i.e. they will match if one is using both packages from the
    Mike> same SuSE Linux distribution.

Well, I think you should have an xemacs-x.y.z-apel-u.v-SuSErev.rpm.
There probably should be dependencies on the x.y.z XEmacs, and
conflicts with other versions.  You see, if the function is a GNU
Emacs synch, then we sometimes _do_ add new functions in the stable
series, and that's _exactly_ the kind of thing that APEL is designed
to deal with.

Maybe we can find some way to stuff APEL into the version-specific
part of load-path.  One often forgets we have those....

    Mike> And for those who build their XEmacs from source it should
    Mike> also be no problem to build their APEL using that XEmacs.

If they're only building one.  I typically have four different
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Stephen J. Turnbull | 11 Dec 2003 06:05
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Re: Compile and efs

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Martin <Richard.Martin <at> aepona.com> writes:

    Richard> Hi, I am having a little trouble with compile and efs. I
    Richard> am using a remote machine to compile and my own to edit
    Richard> the code. The code is cross mounted across both
    Richard> machines. The problem is when I compile on the remote
    Richard> machine and I try to go to an error xemacs starts efs and
    Richard> ftps the file from the remote machine - even though I can
    Richard> it can load is locally. Is there a way to get efs to try
    Richard> and look for the file locally?

Sounds unusual.  I see your point, of course, but it's not obvious
whether we should change compile or efs, or how.

Please do what you usually do, then M-x efs-report-bug.  Add a cc to
xemacs-design <at> xemacs.org.  This will provide the efs maintainer and
xemacs-developers with lots of information about the state of XEmacs
at the time and that may help with designing and implementing the
necessary feature.

--

-- 
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences     http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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Richard Martin | 11 Dec 2003 12:06
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Re: Compile and efs

Just to confirm I am using the remote-compile emacs function. This loads
efs automatically and then ftps the files.

When I use compile - with the same compile command (rsh machine -l
username "(cd /directory; gmake)" - efs is not loaded and emacs loads
the files locally.

Should I still raise an efs bug-report on this?

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 05:05, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Martin <Richard.Martin <at> aepona.com> writes:
> 
>     Richard> Hi, I am having a little trouble with compile and efs. I
>     Richard> am using a remote machine to compile and my own to edit
>     Richard> the code. The code is cross mounted across both
>     Richard> machines. The problem is when I compile on the remote
>     Richard> machine and I try to go to an error xemacs starts efs and
>     Richard> ftps the file from the remote machine - even though I can
>     Richard> it can load is locally. Is there a way to get efs to try
>     Richard> and look for the file locally?
> 
> Sounds unusual.  I see your point, of course, but it's not obvious
> whether we should change compile or efs, or how.
> 
> Please do what you usually do, then M-x efs-report-bug.  Add a cc to
> xemacs-design <at> xemacs.org.  This will provide the efs maintainer and
> xemacs-developers with lots of information about the state of XEmacs
> at the time and that may help with designing and implementing the
> necessary feature.
--

--
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Mike FABIAN | 11 Dec 2003 12:35
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Re: problem startup xemacs 21.4 SuSE Linux 9.0

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen <at> xemacs.org> さんは書きました:

>     Mike> That's no big problem, the APEL from apel-xemacs.rpm will
>     Mike> have been build against the XEmacs from xemacs.rpm,
>     Mike> i.e. they will match if one is using both packages from the
>     Mike> same SuSE Linux distribution.
>
> Well, I think you should have an xemacs-x.y.z-apel-u.v-SuSErev.rpm.

I don't think it is necessary to encode the version numbers into the
file name of the rpm. If one uses apel-xemacs.rpm and xemacs.rpm
downloaded from the same directory, one can assume that they are built
to work together.

> There probably should be dependencies on the x.y.z XEmacs, and
> conflicts with other versions.

Good idea, I'll add that.

> You see, if the function is a GNU Emacs synch, then we sometimes
> _do_ add new functions in the stable series, and that's _exactly_
> the kind of thing that APEL is designed to deal with.
>
> Maybe we can find some way to stuff APEL into the version-specific
> part of load-path.  One often forgets we have those....
>
>     Mike> And for those who build their XEmacs from source it should
>     Mike> also be no problem to build their APEL using that XEmacs.
>
> If they're only building one.  I typically have four different
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Stephen J. Turnbull | 11 Dec 2003 14:20
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Re: Compile and efs

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Martin <Richard.Martin <at> aepona.com> writes:

    Richard> Just to confirm I am using the remote-compile emacs
    Richard> function. This loads efs automatically and then ftps the
    Richard> files.

    Richard> When I use compile - with the same compile command (rsh
    Richard> machine -l username "(cd /directory; gmake)" - efs is not
    Richard> loaded and emacs loads the files locally.

Well, if that does what you want it to do, why are you messing with
remote-compile?  If it doesn't, then figure out what it is you do
want, and explain it to xemacs-design.  It sounds to me like you are
not having any problems with EFS at all, and it's a matter of
configuring compile.  If we can make it more straightforward, or
document it better, then that's worth doing.

--

-- 
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences     http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
               Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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Richard Martin | 12 Dec 2003 17:59
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Re: Compile and efs

Hi Stephen,

Yes it looks as if i shouldn't have even started looking at
remote-compile and should have just configured compile correctly. 

>From your and others help I have now got my development set up and
working perfectly. I'm sure I will have more questions in the future,
but I have now been converted to using xemacs as a development
environment.

Thanks again for all your help
Richard

On Thu, 2003-12-11 at 13:20, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> >>>>> "Richard" == Richard Martin <Richard.Martin <at> aepona.com> writes:
> 
>     Richard> Just to confirm I am using the remote-compile emacs
>     Richard> function. This loads efs automatically and then ftps the
>     Richard> files.
> 
>     Richard> When I use compile - with the same compile command (rsh
>     Richard> machine -l username "(cd /directory; gmake)" - efs is not
>     Richard> loaded and emacs loads the files locally.
> 
> Well, if that does what you want it to do, why are you messing with
> remote-compile?  If it doesn't, then figure out what it is you do
> want, and explain it to xemacs-design.  It sounds to me like you are
> not having any problems with EFS at all, and it's a matter of
> configuring compile.  If we can make it more straightforward, or
> document it better, then that's worth doing.
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