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Richard Stallman | 1 Dec 2009 05:09
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

    Here is my first contribution to the open-source world, and first meaningful chunk of emacs-lisp! :-)

Thanks for contributing to Emacs -- but please don't refer to our
community with the term "open-source".  That is an amoral approach to
the issue, and we disagree with it.  What we do is called "free software".

(Your name looks French; in French it is called « logiciel libre ».)

Google translation suffers from a problem: it is Software as a
Service.  I'm writing an article about why that is a bad thing for
users' freedom.
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Andreas Röhler | 1 Dec 2009 09:36
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     Here is my first contribution to the open-source world, and first meaningful chunk of emacs-lisp! :-)
> 
> Thanks for contributing to Emacs -- but please don't refer to our
> community with the term "open-source".  That is an amoral approach to
> the issue, and we disagree with it.  What we do is called "free software".
> 
> (Your name looks French; in French it is called « logiciel libre ».)
> 
> Google translation suffers from a problem: it is Software as a
> Service.  I'm writing an article about why that is a bad thing for
> users' freedom.
> 
> 

Hi,

Software as a Service here is a misleading term IMHO, even if used by many.
Google doesn't deliver any peace of software,
while doing translations via its API.

You don't get Software as a Service here, the service it does, is just not delivering software. As
the name says, software is a ware, something you may
buy, a value. Seems useful to discriminate between
distribution of a possible ware or providing a service,
which may but must not be done with computers.

Precisely the user sends a peace of text and gets back
a peace of text. That's a plain translation-service,
whoever it did.
(Continue reading)

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Andreas Röhler | 1 Dec 2009 11:37
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

Bastien wrote:
> Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:
> 
>> Software as a Service here is a misleading term IMHO
> 
> Even if the software is not delivered, the user is dealing with "remote"
> software.
>

A running API is a very different thing then just software.

> This software can be free (under the GNU Affero license).

That wouldn't solve the problem.
Given you installed Googles translations API at your computer, what will it translate?
Probably nothing. Why?
Because you lack the databases.

> 
> The question is whether the service itself can be free in the sense of
> "free software" without the software being free.  I don't think it can,
> because it prevents the user from knowing how the data he's sending is
> really handled.
> 
> As far as I understand, the problem with gtranslate.el is that, even if
> it's free software, it encourages users to use non-free softwares (just
> the same than free software for Windows encourage users to use Windows.)
>
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Uwe Brauer | 1 Dec 2009 13:25
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

   >     Here is my first contribution to the open-source world, and first
   > meaningful chunk of emacs-lisp! :-)

   > Thanks for contributing to Emacs -- but please don't refer to our
   > community with the term "open-source".  That is an amoral approach to
   > the issue, and we disagree with it.  What we do is called "free
   > software".

   > (Your name looks French; in French it is called « logiciel libre ».)

   > Google translation suffers from a problem: it is Software as a
   > Service.  I'm writing an article about why that is a bad thing for
   > users' freedom.

I am looking forward for your article. I frankly use this translation
service quite often (but with babel.el) and can't imagine why this could
be a problem for users' freedom other that it prevents them for writing
up an equivalent service under GPL.
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tavernier.bruno | 1 Dec 2009 16:19
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

Dear list members,

Attached to this mail, an updated version of gtranslate.el (bug fixes mainly).
AFAIK, it works only with GNU Emacs 23.x

For more featured packages and Xemacs users considers other solutions:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TextTranslator
git clone git://github.com/juergenhoetzel/babel.git

At Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:09:43 -0500,
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> What we do is called "free software".

Thanks for pointing out. Although, I follow the free software movement
for a hand of years already, I mistook. Shame on me :-(

> Google translation suffers from a problem: it is Software as
> a Service.

I totally, agree.
Without being paranoid, I much prefer to use dictionaries located on
my server or on my desktops.
However, for bulk  translations - i.e. full sentences - it is currently
difficult to do otherwise.
Although overkill and probably memory intensive, I wish I could run such
a service on my own machines.

> I'm writing an article about why that is a bad thing for
> users' freedom.
(Continue reading)

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Andreas Röhler | 1 Dec 2009 18:06
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

[ ... ]
> Meaning that even if the Google Translation software is released under
> the GNU Affero license, this software wouldn't be as useful for 3rd part
> as it is for Google, unless they also disclose their database - which is
> highly unprobable.
> 
>> Probably nothing. Why?
>> Because you lack the databases.
> 
> Right.
> 

Fine. BTW:

Think that's not just a new category of problems, but a
major one - without people seem aware of it to the
extent in deserves IMO.

Depending on databases only accessible through a
privately owned Net-API is one thing. The knowledge
gathered and created behind and upon these databases
another issue.

Depending via some Net-API at the results - but being
deprived of all knowledge to get these results
alternatively seems not recommendable with respect to
human nature.

Cheers
(Continue reading)

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Bastien | 1 Dec 2009 10:32

Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:

> Software as a Service here is a misleading term IMHO

Even if the software is not delivered, the user is dealing with "remote"
software.

This software can be free (under the GNU Affero license).

The question is whether the service itself can be free in the sense of
"free software" without the software being free.  I don't think it can,
because it prevents the user from knowing how the data he's sending is
really handled.

As far as I understand, the problem with gtranslate.el is that, even if
it's free software, it encourages users to use non-free softwares (just
the same than free software for Windows encourage users to use Windows.)

--

-- 
 Bastien
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Bastien | 1 Dec 2009 15:48

Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:

> Bastien wrote:
>> Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:
>> 
>>> Software as a Service here is a misleading term IMHO
>> 
>> Even if the software is not delivered, the user is dealing with "remote"
>> software.
>
> A running API is a very different thing then just software.

I'm not talking about the API.  I'm talking about the software.  The API
stands between the software and the users.  

>> This software can be free (under the GNU Affero license).
>
> That wouldn't solve the problem.
> Given you installed Googles translations API at your computer, what
> will it translate?

The GNU Affero is not for the API, but for the software.  If Google
releases the software behind the Google Translations API, then part 
of the problem is solved, because it lets anyone run this software.

One part remains unsolved: the fact that the value of Google Translation
interface lies more in their huge databases rather than in the software
that is using it.

Meaning that even if the Google Translation software is released under
(Continue reading)

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Richard Stallman | 2 Dec 2009 08:32
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

    However, for bulk  translations - i.e. full sentences - it is currently
    difficult to do otherwise.

We need free software (and data) for this task.
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Richard Stallman | 2 Dec 2009 08:32
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Re: gtranslate.el --- google translation

    You don't get Software as a Service here, the service it does, is
    just not delivering software.

The term "Software as a Service" means that the service consists of
running a program for you to do your computing on your own data.
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