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Mike Kupfer | 1 Jun 2009 05:36
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Re: auto auto-expirable

>>>>> "KY" == Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka <at> jpl.org> writes:

KY> The attached patch solves it, i.e., read articles copied or moved to
KY> auto-expirable group are automatically marked as expirable.  Does
KY> anyone see any harm with this change?

Hi, I'm not sure I understand the implications of your proposal.  My
current email workflow is a mixture of MH-E and Gnus, all using MH
folders.  I'm on several high-traffic mailing lists, so I use a
filtering script to assign incoming mail to various folders, which I
read with Gnus.

Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder.  Currently,
I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
while reading that other folder.  

Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message.  If
that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.  So I'd
prefer to keep the current behavior.  Perhaps there should be a
customization flag to control the behavior?

cheers,
mike
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Didier Verna | 1 Jun 2009 10:35
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Re: auto auto-expirable

Mike Kupfer <mike.kupfer <at> xemacs.org> wrote:

> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
> while reading that other folder.
>
> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

  When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
correct group.

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Scientific site:   http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier
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Katsumi Yamaoka | 1 Jun 2009 13:20
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Re: auto auto-expirable

>>>>> Didier Verna wrote:
> Mike Kupfer <mike.kupfer <at> xemacs.org> wrote:

>> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
>> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
>> while reading that other folder.
>>
>> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
>> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
>> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

>   When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
> group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
> the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
> usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
> correct group.

I'll do it like Didier, but I can agree with Mike.  Maybe it
will be better not to change the present behavior by default.
So, I'm trying to make it customizable by the group parameter
`auto-auto-expire'.  It also provides the variable
`gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups' as well; you can use it
like `gnus-auto-expirable-newsgroups'.  Probably I'll use the
same value for both the variables.

But the greatest difficulty is to summarize the document briefly
in the first lines of the doc-strings:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(gnus-define-group-parameter
(Continue reading)

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Katsumi Yamaoka | 1 Jun 2009 13:48
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[bugfixed] deleting part with non-ASCII name

Copy this article to somewhere and try deleting the attachment by
typing `2 K d'.  You will see the file name is broken.  I've fixed
it in the Gnus trunk (the Emacs trunk is now out of service).
Attachment (資料一式.zip): application/zip, 114 bytes
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Tim Landscheidt | 1 Jun 2009 14:47
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Re: auto auto-expirable

Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka <at> jpl.org> wrote:

>>> Sometimes the scripts assign a message to the wrong folder. Currently,
>>> I just save the message to the correct folder and then deal with it
>>> while reading that other folder.

>>> Now, if I understand your proposal, it sounds like I would need to
>>> remember to clear the "expirable" mark before saving the message. If
>>> that's correct, it seems awkward and easy to forget to do.

>>   When I face such situations, I usually move the article to the correct
>> group *before* reading it, so Katsumi's change would not affect you. In
>> the cases when the article is displayed for whatever reason, I also
>> usually M c it (before reading it), move it, and again read it from the
>> correct group.

> I'll do it like Didier, but I can agree with Mike.  Maybe it
> will be better not to change the present behavior by default.
> [...]

I *think* I do it like Didier, but I don't know if I don't
do it sometimes like Mike :-). With the danger of losing
mail, I'd prefer a "Are you really sure?" dialog, perhaps
similar to scroll-left & Co. if technically possible.

  In the end, moving a mail only to have it expired seems
not a very common thing to do.

Tim
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Mike Kupfer | 2 Jun 2009 04:23
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Re: auto auto-expirable

I don't have much experience writing Emacs docstrings, but FWIW here's
an attempt to tighten the wording.  Thanks for making this customizable.

>  :function gnus-group-auto-auto-expirable-p
>  :function-document
>  "Check whether articles that havie been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or
copied to GROUP."

   "Indicate whether articles that are marked expirable should retain that mark when moved or copied to GROUP."

>  :variable gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups
>  :variable-default nil
>  :variable-document
>  "Groups in which articles that have been read are automatically marked as expirable when moved to or
copied to there.

   "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain the expirable mark.

> If non-nil, this should be a regexp that should match all groups in
> which to perform auto auto-expiry.  If this is nil or the group name
> does not match this, the expirable marks of articles that have been
> read will remain (not be set forcibly) when they are moved to or
> copied to the group in which to perform auto-expiry.  This only makes
> sense for mail groups."

Should that be "If this is nil... the expirable marks of articles will
be cleared"?

>  :variable-group nnmail-expire
>  :variable-type '(choice (const nil)
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Katsumi Yamaoka | 2 Jun 2009 13:12
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Re: auto auto-expirable

>>>>> Mike Kupfer wrote:
> I don't have much experience writing Emacs docstrings, but FWIW here's
> an attempt to tighten the wording.  Thanks for making this customizable.

>>  :function-document
>    "Indicate whether articles that are marked expirable should retain that mark when moved or copied to GROUP."
>>  :variable-document
>    "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain the expirable mark.

Thank you for the improvement.  That's ok but the best is to make
the first line say what it is in the length of 80-column or less
because `C-h f' or `C-h v' displays it.

>> If non-nil, this should be a regexp that should match all groups in
>> which to perform auto auto-expiry.  If this is nil or the group name
[...]

> Should that be "If this is nil... the expirable marks of articles will
> be cleared"?

That's good.  However, I got to think the `auto-auto-expire' group
parameter is overkill.

>>  :parameter-document
>    "Articles that have the expirable mark will retain that mark if moved or copied into a matching group,
assuming the group does auto-expiry."

BTW, here is another solution, that lets Gnus behave as before
even if the patch that I made has been applied.  Though it might
make moving and copying of articles slow if the target group
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Katsumi Yamaoka | 2 Jun 2009 13:38
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Re: auto auto-expirable

>>>>> Katsumi Yamaoka wrote:
> the first line say what it is in the length of 80-column or less
> because `C-h f' or `C-h v' displays it.

Sorry, it should be:

because `M-x apropos' displays it.
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Reiner Steib | 2 Jun 2009 19:34
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Re: auto auto-expirable

On Tue, Jun 02 2009, Mike Kupfer wrote:
> Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka <at> jpl.org> writes:
>>  :variable gnus-auto-auto-expirable-newsgroups
>>  :variable-default nil
>>  :variable-document
>>  "Groups in which articles that have been read are automatically
>>  marked as expirable when moved to or copied to there.
>
>    "Articles that are moved or copied into these groups will retain
>    the expirable mark.

Does your proposal only apply to auto-expirable groups/articles?  The
variable names and Katsumi's doc strings suggest it, but according
to Mike's doc string suggestion, it applies to all expirable article.

On Tue, Jun 02 2009, Katsumi Yamaoka wrote:
> (defcustom gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry nil
>   "If non-nil, don't do auto auto-expiry when moving or copying articles.
> `Auto auto-expiry' means that read articles, even if they haven't been
> marked as expirable, will be automatically marked as expirable when
> moved or copied to a group in which to perform auto-expiry."

I don't have a good suggestion, but the term `Auto auto-expiry' (and
the variable names *-auto-auto-*) is not clear.

Bye, Reiner.
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Mike Kupfer | 4 Jun 2009 06:13
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Re: auto auto-expirable

I like the gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry user option.

>>>>> "KY" == Katsumi Yamaoka <yamaoka <at> jpl.org> writes:

KY> It never slows Gnus, though it doesn't provide the means to
KY> customize the behavior group by group.

For my purposes at least, that's not a problem.  I don't expect to
customize the behavior on a per-group basis.

KY> BTW, here is another solution, that lets Gnus behave as before even
KY> if the patch that I made has been applied.  Though it might make
KY> moving and copying of articles slow if the target group contains
KY> 100,000 articles.  Isn't it acceptable?

I could certainly live with a hook like this, especially since you've
written it for me :-), though I think I'd prefer the
gnus-inhibit-auto-auto-expiry user option.

cheers,
mike
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