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Greever, Barbara | 1 May 01:22

Counting pages in unpaginated volumes

If there's a title page, I count every page after the t.p. verso. 

If the title is from the cover, and there is also text on one or more pages of the cover, I count everything.

If the title is from the cover, and there is no text on any of the cover, I count every interior page.  In this
case, I do NOT include p. [1-4] of the cover in the count, even if they are of the same type of paper as the rest
of the publication.  (I have seen this cause duplicate records in OCLC too many times, with a record for each
count with a difference of 4 pages.  The question is, did I go the correct way with my admittedly arbitrary
decision ? -- smile)

Barbara

******************************
Barbara C. Greever
Principal Catalog Librarian
Associate Professor
University of Idaho Library
PO Box 442350
Moscow, ID  83844-2350
bgreever@...
voice: 208-885-2510
fax: 208-885-6817
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john g marr | 1 May 02:17
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Re: Dr Stuhlman's son's question

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008, Daniel Stuhlman wrote:

> If we did followed your ideas [to purposly confound the cataloging 
> rules], the book would violate one of my rules of good 
> publisher-librarian relationships.

  I do not see it that way, Daniel. I see such a work as a gift to the 
cataloging community, a useful and lighthearted teaching tool, and as 
the most creative work ever attempted in the field of library science.

  Perhaps this list could come up with such a work collaboratively.

                                             John G. Marr
                                             Cataloger
                                             RMBA, UNMGL
                                             Univ. of New Mexico
                                             Albuquerque, NM 87131
                                             jmarr@...
                                             jmarr@...

         **"I really like to know the reasons for what I do!"**
                                             Martha Watson

Opinions belong exclusively to the individuals expressing them, but
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Hal Cain | 1 May 02:26
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Re: Counting pages in unpaginated volumes

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:13:19 -0500, Shorten, Jay <jshorten@...> wrote:

>I do this for some state government documents, and always for things such
as PDFs, which the computer has counted already, so I might as well make use
of that data.
>
>If there is a page 1, I count everything thenceforward [from there
forward]. But if there are numbered preliminary pages before that, then I
just count everything, because [xvi, 200] p. looks a bit silly to me and
will likely be incomprehensible to the user, who will not understand why on
earth I did not put [216] p. And if there is no numeration, then I count
everything.

I do much the same.  The problem sometimes is to know whether to count pages
printed on one side only (often, but not always, illustrations) as leaves or
as pages which happen to be followed by a blank page on the verso of the leaf.

I count unnumbered pages or leaves in the theses we catalogue (omitting
blank leaves), because otherwise there's no record of the actual content, in
leaves or pages, of a complete copy.

Hal Cain
Dalton McCaughey Library
Parkville, Victoria, Australia
hal@...

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phirsch | 1 May 06:59
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Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question was Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question; now, the metaphysics of cataloging (or something)

All of this discussion has dislodged a memory of a cataloging conundrum I
came across a few years back that strikes me as a similar challenge.

In the course of a massive backlog project involving the cataloging of tens
of thousands of LP records, I came across, in the pile of uncataloged
items, a disc titled "Greatest hits of Marcel Morceau" [sic, at least as
far as the misspelling of the mime's name is concerned]. It had minimal
information on the jacket and the record itself had one unmodulated groove
on each side (at least that is what was quite obvious to the naked eye; I
never took the time to put it on a turntable and play it. It was clearly a
joke item). I wrestled for a long time  trying to decide if there was any
reason to catalog this item and, if we did, to catalog it as what. Is a
disc with zero audible content, other than surface noise, a sound
recording? What were we trying to give access to if we put it in the
catalog? The liner notes? Fortunately, I can't remember what was decided,
so I can toss this out to AUTOCAT without any agenda other than pure
curiosity.

Any thoughts?

Peter Hirsch
NYPL

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Roger Fenton | 1 May 10:33
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Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question

Where does "communication" such as the High Priest of Israel whispering 
the secret ineffable name of G*d in the Holy of Holies in the Temple of 
Jerusalem once a year fit into this model? (And I'm sure there are other 
religions where something similar takes place). It looks to me more as 
words having power in and of themselves rather than as means of 
communication.

Roger Fenton

Catalogydd - Casgliad 'Doggie' Hubbard
Adran Gwasanaethau Casgliadau
Is-adran Data Llyfryddol
Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 3BU
Cymru

http://www.llgc.org.uk/ 
Ffôn: +44 (0) 1970 632800 est. 368
e-bost: roger.fenton@...

Dydy'r uchod ddim o reidrwydd yn cynrychioli polisi'r LlGC

'Doggie' Hubbard Collection Cataloguer
Department of Collection Services
Bibliographic Data Section
National Library of Wales
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 3BU
Wales

http://www.llgc.org.uk/
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Helen Buhler | 1 May 12:32
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Re: SCM H 1105 clarification please

On 30 April 2008 at 9:11, Aaron Kuperman <akup@...> wrote:
> The scope note under Administration says:
> "Use as a topical subdivision under names of individual libraries and
> institutions in the spheres of health, social services, and education, and
> under types of such institutions. Under names of other corporate bodies,
> including government agencies, galleries, museums, parks, etc., use the
> subdivision Management." 
> 
[snip]
> states.
> 
> Perhaps CPSO might consider merging the two. My impression is that things
> were administered in the 19th century, but by the end of the 20th most
> things were being managed (not necessarily better).
> 
I'd like to support this suggestion from Aaron.  It's a cofnusing
area, and seems to me one where standardising on one heading would
help both cataloguers and catalogue users.  If we aren't sure which to
use, how will a reader know which to look for?

I've copied CPSO in.

Helen
Helen Buhler,
Classification Coordinator, The Templeman Library,
The University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent CT2 7NU.    
Email: H.M.Buhler@...  Fax: +44 (0)1227 827107 
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy, and tasty with ketchup.
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Cary Daniel | 1 May 14:05
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Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question

Years ago (before I knew any German) I used to listen to a German radio 
program, because I enjoyed the music.  When the DJ spoke in German, I 
understood absolutely nothing he said.  He intended to convey a meaning 
with his words, but none was understood--none was conveyed. To me it was 
gibberish.

Likewise, now, if I speak in German to one of my staff (who understands 
no German), what meaning of the words is being conveyed?  To the staff 
member it will be gibberish.

Until the monkey (by chance, and the chance is very near zero) types out 
something with meaning, then it too is gibberish.  I myself do not 
understand "kjvnveanjeaqnvoupnpv9hsnv", with or without punctuation..

One of the definitions of information is that it ceases to be 
information if it is not accessed (ie, data in a book, once it is 
closed, is no longer data).  Presumably the sense behind this is because 
nothing at that point is being conveyed.  If not conveyed, then no 
message, no meaning, no information.

Cary S. Daniel
Acting Director, Library Technical Services
1100 Elborn College
cdaniel5@...
(519) 661-2111 ext 84792

Suzanne Stauffer wrote:
>> I guess I'm oldfashioned -- I don't see words conveying meaning if no
>>     
> communicatee understands.  But what if the communicator has no target in
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Bob Mead-Donaldson | 1 May 14:57

Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question

Well, if that book were here on the shelf to be cataloged I'd be content 
with the D part of cataloging and muddle through with the A part, the 
subject access of it anyway and not unduly agonize.  It would be helpful 
to write up a carefully worded note explaining the nature of the text, 
and anything else to either entice or forewarn any potential readers (or 
scanners?, as in scan over the letters)   Hopefully there would be 
introductory or preface material explaining the author's intentions in 
composing the text.  Basically catalogers catalog what authors write and 
have published, or produced.   Illustrations would be  nice?

gratuitous quote:

"Son,  now that you're older and mature I got you this book to read, it 
will show you how to organize your mind."
"Gee willikers, does it have pictures?"

Priscilla's pop (Comic strip)       something I read in the "funny 
papers" a long long long time ago.

bob mead-donaldson
florida international university  

Cary Daniel wrote:
> Years ago (before I knew any German) I used to listen to a German radio 
> program, because I enjoyed the music.  When the DJ spoke in German, I 
> understood absolutely nothing he said.  He intended to convey a meaning 
>   
>

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Gordon Pew | 1 May 15:23
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Re: Counting pages in unpaginated volumes

Giving the expressed or implied number of pages of a printed item really 
serves two audiences: the library user (external customer) and the 
cataloging (and wider librarian) community.  The external user often wants 
(and sometimes needs) to know whether a resource is lengthy or brief; this 
may influence the user's decision to seek out and use the resource.  Such 
information is needed also for compiling bibliographies or citing works 
used in one's own research.  The internal user depends on a valid (and 
meaningful) report of the extent of a resource so that practitioners can 
identify a given item with a given bibliographic record.  IMO, neither user 
is well-served by a statement such as "1 v. (unpaged)" or  "1 v. (various 
pagings)".  AACR2R 2.5B7 tells us to count or estimate unpaged pagings or 
foliations (who but a cataloger knows what *that* word means ;-)?) and give 
the number in square brackets.  Even though the LCRI says that LC 
catalogers shouldn't do this but instead report 1 v. (unpaged), we are free 
to use the AACR2R method.  I don't, myself, because our library adheres to 
LC practice.  But if I had my druthers, I'd give [65] p. Actually, if I 
really had my druthers, I'd avoid square brackets altogether, as I have 
read RDA calls for (except when data is taken from outside the resource 
altogether).   One complaint I have about the "new" approach to cataloging 
loose-leaf publications is the decision to give an open collation (i.e., 
"v.") until an edition is closed, then entering "6 v.".  I know the change 
was made to avoid one's having to go into the record every time a new 
binder is issued (was 4 v., now 5 v., maybe tomorrow 7 v.), but not to give 
any indication whether the work consists of 30 binders or one is not 
helpful to anyone.

Gordon Pew
Head of Copy Cataloging and Database Management
Harvard Law School Library
164 Langdell Hall
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Aaron Smith | 1 May 15:30
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Re: Mr Stuhlman's son's question

With respect to this definition, it must be noted that information theory
and chaos theory imply that meaning will emerge in time, even from random
characters.

On 5/1/08, Cary Daniel <cdaniel5@...> wrote:
>
>
> One of the definitions of information is that it ceases to be information
> if it is not accessed (ie, data in a book, once it is closed, is no longer
> data).  Presumably the sense behind this is because nothing at that point is
> being conveyed.  If not conveyed, then no message, no meaning, no
> information.
>

As such, an article like this can be approached in a couple of ways not yet
considered:

1) As a work-in-process-in-context, with meaning yet to be determined, and
meaning dependent on cultural context; cataloging may even involve the
process of determining meaning, even without knowing the intention of the
author (performance art, and perhaps cataloging-as-performance-art!)

2) As the outcome of a process, for which the subdivision "Specimens" would
supplement a heading possibly determinable by author and audience context.

A correllate to Pilate's "What is truth?", I suppose, might be "What is
random?" No generation of so-called random characters is not limited by
technological, psychological, physiological or cosmological factors,
limitations which may produce meaning in retrospect.
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