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James Spinti | 1 Nov 2011 14:07
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Englishing the Iliad

I haven't seen this posted here yet, from The New Yorker's Book Bench blog:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2011/11/englishing-the-iliad.html

Enjoy!
James
________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 35 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788
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Ralph Hancock | 1 Nov 2011 23:11
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Re: Englishing the Iliad

I'm very happy to come across someone who appreciates Pope's Iliad.
Pope hardly gets a mention on this list when translations are
discussed -- too far from the sentence structure of the Greek, I
suppose, a poet of an unfashionable era.

Well, I have done my time with Lattimore, and for all his much praised
faithfulness to the original it is like a long ride in a springless
farm cart. And I find Fagles and Fitzgerald even more jarring. Why go
in these bumpy conveyances when you can make the journey in a
Rolls-Royce?

If I want a close translation of the original Greek, I can read Rieu's
stately translation. But if I am reading for pleasure, it's Pope every
time.

RH
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Michael Smith | 2 Nov 2011 00:05

Re: Englishing the Iliad

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:11:00 +0000
Ralph Hancock <ralph.hancock <at> GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> I'm very happy to come across someone who appreciates Pope's Iliad.

Hear hear; it's badly underrated. 

That said, the Mendelsohn piece was the silliest 
thing I've seen in a long time. The guy seems 
to have systematically confused syllable length with 
accent; and all that over-interpretation of the 
phonetics is classic lit-crit rodomontade. Really, 
now, are there significantly more p's and l's in this 
passage than in any number of other randomly-selected 
passages having nothing to do with the sea? 

Homer is undoubtedly great, but this kind of phonetic 
chromatography tells us nothing about why. And Pope's 
translation is undoubtedly great, but it would be hard 
to find one that *sounds* less like Homer. 

--

-- 
--

Michael J. Smith
mjs <at> smithbowen.net

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org
http://www.cars-suck.org
http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com
(Continue reading)

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Ralph Hancock | 2 Nov 2011 00:51
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Re: Englishing the Iliad

Michael Smith wrote:

> Really,
> now, are there significantly more p's and l's in this
> passage than in any number of other randomly-selected
> passages having nothing to do with the sea?

If the deployment of Ps and Ls to render the sound of water were all
that were necessary to make a great poem, Theophilus Marzials' 'A
Tragedy' (from _The Gallery of Pigeons_, 1874), would be a
masterpiece.

RH

---------------

Death!
Plop.
The barges down in the river flop.
Flop, plop.
Above, beneath.
From the slimy branches the grey drips drop,
As they scraggle black on the thin grey sky,
Where the black cloud rack-hackles drizzle and fly
To the oozy waters, that lounge and flop
On the black scrag piles, where the loose cords plop,
As the raw wind whines in the thin tree-top.
Plop, plop.
And scudding by
The boatmen call out hoy! and hey!
(Continue reading)

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Michael Smith | 2 Nov 2011 01:02

Re: Englishing the Iliad

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:51:45 +0000
Ralph Hancock <ralph.hancock <at> GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> If the deployment of Ps and Ls to render the sound of water were all
> that were necessary to make a great poem, Theophilus Marzials' 'A
> Tragedy' (from _The Gallery of Pigeons_, 1874), would be a
> masterpiece.

Heh. That was wonderful. And Edgar Allan Poe would bestride
the very summit of Parnassus. 

--

-- 
--

Michael J. Smith
mjs <at> smithbowen.net

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org
http://www.cars-suck.org
http://fakesprogress.blogspot.com

"I think the American people want a solemn ass 
as a President, and I think I will go along with them."

-- Barack Obama 

(Okay, okay, it was really Calvin Coolidge.)
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DANIEL P. TOMPKINS | 2 Nov 2011 05:31
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Query: dea prosae?

Here's a sentence from Victor Shklovsky's essay, "Art comme procédé" in
Tvetan Todorov, Théorie de la littérature" (Paris, 1965).  I'd be
interested in any information as to the source, which Shklovsky does not
provide:

*Dea prosae *est la deesse de l'accouchement facile, correct, d'une bonne
position de l'enfant.

Shklovsky goes on to say:

"En art, il y a un « *ordre* »; cependant, il n'y a pas une seule colonne
du temple grec qui le suive exactement, et le rythme esthétique consiste en
un rythme prosaique *viol**é..."*
*
*
*Dan Tompkins*
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Goya | 2 Nov 2011 09:20
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Re: Query: dea prosae?

Hi Dan,

The correct form is dea *prosa* or *prorsa*; see, for instance, Gellius NA
16, 6,  Tert. Ad nat. 2,11). She is one of the host of Roman birth
godesses: (Porrima, Postverta; Antevorta, Postvorta, Postverta)

Here is Ottavio Scarlattini, Homo Et Eius Partes. - Augsburg & Dillingen,
1695, p. 8

Cum vero de mirabilibus mihi sermo saciendus sit, nolim tamen in
propositionibus meis hyperbolicus videri, et ampullosus, nec is, quem quis
dixerit ultralimites naturae evagati, praesertim si hominem appellaverim
sapientem Magum, prodidum, praesagum, imo vero prodigiosum, quippe quod in
eodem ipso essectus producuntur, vel ut melius dixerim, tales ipse
producit, qui, propter insuetudinem, fidem omnem exuperare videntur.
Fortassis ad nomen Magi nonnullus erit qui pavefactus sit, reputans secum,
merito mihi severum indicendum esse silentium; sed novi me sapientibus
sermocinari. Intelligunt enim hi, de qua magia hic loquar: excluditur enim
illa, aut negotium suum habet, quippe quae caliginosa est, et delirans, et
mendax, et omni pacto detestanda, et profliganda. ***In miraculo meo
animato haec posterior magia, Dea Postverta, illa anterior Dea Prosa dici
poterit***. [note: Ex Pre. Meraviglia Protheus Ethico Polit. ] Itaque cum
Plotino sic concluserim, quod Magia illa superior: Facit hominem
Interpretem, atque sapientiae Cultorem, quales erant Magi apud Persas,
quos Latini appellavere sapientes,

> Here's a sentence from Victor Shklovsky's essay, "Art comme procédé" in
> Tvetan Todorov, Théorie de la littérature" (Paris, 1965).  I'd be
> interested in any information as to the source, which Shklovsky does not
> provide:
(Continue reading)

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Mark Davidson | 2 Nov 2011 09:24
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Re: Englishing the Iliad

> If the deployment of Ps and Ls to render the sound of water were all
> that were necessary to make a great poem, Theophilus Marzials' 'A
> Tragedy' (from _The Gallery of Pigeons_, 1874), would be a
> masterpiece.
>
> RH

This topic of classical translations and bad poems prompts me to ask
which are the *worst* ever translations of Homer, or other classical
works?

I can think of Elphinstone's translation of Martial, which prompted
Robert Burns to write the following epigram:

   O thou whom Poesy abhors,
   Whom Prose has turnèd out of doors,
   Heard'st thou yon groan? - Proceed no further!
   'Twas laurel'd Martial calling 'Murther!'

Elphinstone's problem was that he didn't really seem to understand
what an epigram is, and appeared to go out of his way to obscure and
blunt the point of each one.

For example, I.vii

  Stellae delicium mei columba,
  Verona licet audiente dicam,
  vicit, Maxime, passerem Catulli.
  tanto Stella meus tuo Catullo
  quanto passere maior est columba.
(Continue reading)

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Ida Stein | 2 Nov 2011 09:27
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Re: Query: dea prosae?

For what it's worth, it's "dea prorsa" in the Russian edition.

Ida Stein

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:31 AM, DANIEL P. TOMPKINS <pericles <at> temple.edu>wrote:

> Here's a sentence from Victor Shklovsky's essay, "Art comme procédé" in
> Tvetan Todorov, Théorie de la littérature" (Paris, 1965).  I'd be
> interested in any information as to the source, which Shklovsky does not
> provide:
>
> *Dea prosae *est la deesse de l'accouchement facile, correct, d'une bonne
> position de l'enfant.
>
> Shklovsky goes on to say:
>
> "En art, il y a un « *ordre* »; cependant, il n'y a pas une seule colonne
> du temple grec qui le suive exactement, et le rythme esthétique consiste en
> un rythme prosaique *viol**é..."*
> *
> *
> *Dan Tompkins*
>
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Goya | 2 Nov 2011 09:47
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Re: Query: dea prosae?

Thanks to I. Stein for confirming what I suspected.

Here we have a typical case: a unexceptionable statement is made in a
relatively inaccessible language, then mistranslated, then taken as the
Gospel truth by God knows how many web sites and works on litcrit theory.
It has henceforth entered The Canon, and I doubt it will be expunged from
there  anytime soon.

Best, Mike

> For what it's worth, it's "dea prorsa" in the Russian edition.
>
> Ida Stein
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:31 AM, DANIEL P. TOMPKINS
> <pericles <at> temple.edu>wrote:
>
>> Here's a sentence from Victor Shklovsky's essay, "Art comme procédé" in
>> Tvetan Todorov, Théorie de la littérature" (Paris, 1965).  I'd be
>> interested in any information as to the source, which Shklovsky does not
>> provide:
>>
>> *Dea prosae *est la deesse de l'accouchement facile, correct, d'une
>> bonne
>> position de l'enfant.
>>
>> Shklovsky goes on to say:
>>
>> "En art, il y a un « *ordre* »; cependant, il n'y a pas une seule
(Continue reading)

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Gmane