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mailman | 1 Jul 2010 13:31

Guidelines for WDSCI-L mailing list

Monthly posting of the guidelines for participation in the Websphere
Development Studio Client and Rational Developer for i mailing list.

Keep to the subject.  The topic of the list is IBM's Websphere Development
Studio Client and Rational Developer for i.  This includes all aspects of
WDSCi / RDi.  Including, but not limited to: RSE, LPEX, Compiling,
Verification, EGL, Web development, Java development, and CODE/400.

Limited discussion of third party plug-in's is also allowed.  It is, 
however, recommend that questions about third party (non-IBM), non-open
source, plug-in's be directed to the vendor's technical support group.

Please be aware ... a number of IBM employees monitor this mailing list
and will offer help when possible.  Please keep in mind that the IBM'ers
participate in this list on their spare time and so may not be able to
respond promptly if at all.

When starting a new discussion thread, *PLEASE* try to avoid replying to
an existing message to get the correct email address.  When you reply to
an existing message, most email clients and the list archiving software
think that the new thread is part of the old thread, and will display it
as such.

When quoting messages, do not quote the entire message.  Just quote the
parts that are needed to make the appropriate references.

Flames are absolutely prohibited.  If you disagree with someone, feel
free to argue the facts, but no personal attacks will be tolerated.

The official language of the Midrange Systems Mailing List is English.
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Needles,Stephen J | 6 Jul 2010 22:36

Re: Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

Hey all,

New to this product.  We are trying to obtain approval from the corporate gatekeepers for the SoftLanding
RSE Extensions Plug-in for IBM Rational Developer for i ...

In order to allow this open source stuff into the world I work in, I need a bit of info.  John Zurich of
Softlanding pointed me to this list.

My hope is that you all have access to the answers to these questions and that this source will still appease
the gods that oversee the open source stuff used by my company.

Here goes...

1.  Open Source Product Name (Use the addendum to enter multiple open source components).  I believe that
they want the names of the open source components used to create the function.

2.  Open Source Product Description

3.  Open Source Vendor

I'm not sure of the context for some of these questions, mostly because I don't know enough of this
environment to even know the proper questions.  Those above are from the legal eagles.

Thanks!

Steve N.

==============================================================================
This communication, including attachments, is confidential, may be subject to legal privileges, and is
intended for the sole use of the addressee. Any use, duplication, disclosure or dissemination of this
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Buck | 6 Jul 2010 22:52
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Re: Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

On 7/6/2010 4:36 PM, Stephen wrote:

> In order to allow this open source stuff into the world I work in, I need a bit of info.  John Zurich of
Softlanding pointed me to this list.

> 1.  Open Source Product Name 
SoftLanding RSE Extensions Plug-in for IBM Rational Developer for i

> 2.  Open Source Product Description
RSE Extensions Plug-in for IBM Rational Developer for i

> 3.  Open Source Vendor
SoftLanding

The classic reason to ask these questions is because you are making a
'for profit' product and you don't want to inadvertently include some
snippet of open source software that will forever doom your company to
provide the entire source code base for free to the public.

I personally think that's an urban legend, but don't take legal advice
from some comment on the Internet.  I think that adding an open source
extension to IBM software is a very different proposition from adding
open source software to your in-house software.  That's my opinion of
course, but my boss is a stickler for 100% compliance with software
agreements and he didn't blink when I told him I'd be adding open source
extensions to WDSC.

Good luck, hope to see more of your posts in the future!
  --buck
--

--
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Vern Hamberg | 6 Jul 2010 23:47
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Re: Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

Steve

I did not think those extensions were open-source - they are freely 
available from SoftLanding on their website, and the product name, 
description, and vendor (SoftLanding, of course) are all there on the site.

What am I missing? And when did they release them as open-source? Did 
they? They are free and may have limited support from SoftLanding - the 
extent of that is explained on the site, as I recall.

Ah, I see - on the downloads page they have both these extension and 
Subversion under a heading of "open source". I think that's misleading. 
None of the further description of the RSE Extensions speaks about being 
open-source - the Subversion page does, and points to the Tigris.org 
site where it is being maintained as open source.

So I believe the RSE Extensions are NOT open source. They ARE free 
downloads courtesy of SoftLanding. The following is taken straight from 
their website.

Product name: *RSE Extensions Plug-in
Product description: *This plug-in provides several utilities that make 
it easier for you to work entirely within the WebSphere IDE: fast access 
to spooled file output; the ability to view and respond to System i 
messages; graphical source compare and merge editors for System i code; 
the ability to edit data areas and display data queues; and a 
perspective that lets you view two source-editing windows simultaneously.
Vendor: SoftLanding Systems (A Division of the UNICOM Group of Companies)

Except that they don't tell you where the open-source repository is -
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Charles Wilt | 7 Jul 2010 14:21
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Re: Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

Vern,

Actually they are open source (at least here's instructions for
getting the WDSCi v6 source)

http://support.softlanding.com/opensource/site/develop.html

HTH,
Charles

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Vern Hamberg <vhamberg@...> wrote:
> Steve
>
> I did not think those extensions were open-source - they are freely
> available from SoftLanding on their website, and the product name,
> description, and vendor (SoftLanding, of course) are all there on the site.
>
> What am I missing? And when did they release them as open-source? Did
> they? They are free and may have limited support from SoftLanding - the
> extent of that is explained on the site, as I recall.
>
> Ah, I see - on the downloads page they have both these extension and
> Subversion under a heading of "open source". I think that's misleading.
> None of the further description of the RSE Extensions speaks about being
> open-source - the Subversion page does, and points to the Tigris.org
> site where it is being maintained as open source.
>
> So I believe the RSE Extensions are NOT open source. They ARE free
> downloads courtesy of SoftLanding. The following is taken straight from
> their website.
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Needles,Stephen J | 7 Jul 2010 15:19

(no subject)

Thanks Buck.

I know all of this info was already on the web-site, but I think I just read too much into the questions and
began to second-guess myself.

Another area of our concern is if a Vendor is suddenly (for some reason) unable to use the open source code any
longer (pirated for example), what would be our exposure?  Could we be accused of accepting stolen goods? 
What happens to the product if, during a dispute, the open source component is no longer available to the
Vendor?  Will we need to back it out of our own code?  Can the functionality change?  Will we be (as you
mentioned) risking some portion of our own profit just because we made use of the product?

So the risks seem to range the gamut from civil to criminal.

These are the types of things that seem to keep lawyers awake at night...and the points they want handled
prior to the introduction of this type of product.

We live in a murky world where people will split hairs for a nickel.

Thanks!

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: wdsci-l-bounces@...
[mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Buck
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 3:52 PM
To: wdsci-l@...
Subject: Re: [WDSCI-L] Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

On 7/6/2010 4:36 PM, Stephen wrote:
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Schmidt, Mihael | 7 Jul 2010 15:36
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Re: (no subject)

<quote>
What happens to the product if, during a dispute, the open source component is no longer available to the Vendor?
</quote> 

That is the great thing about open source. Because it is open source they can't just stop distributing the
same version as open source. The code version which has been distributed as open source has to stay open
source. If all contributing parties agree on a license change future releases may not be open source
anymore. But the user of open source always has the right to get the open sourced version of the code.

<quote>
Can the functionality change? 
</quote>

Why shouldn't it be allowed to change? I think that has nothing to do with open source.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mihael

-----Original Message-----
From: wdsci-l-bounces@...
[mailto:wdsci-l-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Needles,Stephen J
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 3:19 PM
To: wdsci-l@...
Subject: [WDSCI-L] (no subject)

Thanks Buck.

I know all of this info was already on the web-site, but I think I just read too much into the questions and
began to second-guess myself.
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Vern Hamberg | 7 Jul 2010 15:55
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Re: Open Source component list for the RDi Plugin

Charles

Thanks for digging that out - I didn't spend much time on looking, but 
this was about as obvious as the %VAR() in green-screen debug help was.  :-)

My question is, why didn't the SoftLanding person give all this to the 
OP in the first place? Sheesh!!

Vern

On 7/7/2010 7:21 AM, Charles Wilt wrote:
> Vern,
>
> Actually they are open source (at least here's instructions for
> getting the WDSCi v6 source)
>
> http://support.softlanding.com/opensource/site/develop.html
>
> HTH,
> Charles
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Vern Hamberg<vhamberg@...>  wrote:
>    
>> Steve
>>
>> I did not think those extensions were open-source - they are freely
>> available from SoftLanding on their website, and the product name,
>> description, and vendor (SoftLanding, of course) are all there on the site.
>>
>> What am I missing? And when did they release them as open-source? Did
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Jon Paris | 7 Jul 2010 16:06

Re: Open source and RDp (no subject)

Lawyers will always find things to worry about. Not because you should  
worry but because they don't get paid otherwise.

Couple of things to consider.

1) RDp itself is based on open source (Eclipse) so you are already  
taking all of the supposed "risks" just by using it with or without  
the plug ins.

2) The Apache web server you use on IBM i is open source - same things  
apply.

This really is a no-op that serves no purpose than to allow lawyers to  
line their pockets.

Jon Paris

www.Partner400.com
www.SystemiDeveloper.com

On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:36 AM, wdsci-l-request@... wrote:

> Another area of our concern is if a Vendor is suddenly (for some  
> reason) unable to use the open source code any longer (pirated for  
> example), what would be our exposure?  Could we be accused of  
> accepting stolen goods?  What happens to the product if, during a  
> dispute, the open source component is no longer available to the  
> Vendor?  Will we need to back it out of our own code?  Can the  
> functionality change?  Will we be (as you mentioned) risking some  
> portion of our own profit just because we made use of the product?
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Charles Wilt | 7 Jul 2010 16:22
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Re: Open source and RDp (no subject)

A third point...

There's a huge difference between incorporating open source into your
product and simply making use of open source tools in your business to
build your product.

With RDp ( and it's ancestors RDi, and WDSCi) and the RSE plug-ins,
you're simply using the tools....they have no effect on your end
product.

Honestly, that's all you should need to make your "legal eagles" understand.

HTH,
Charles

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Jon Paris <jon.paris@...> wrote:
> Lawyers will always find things to worry about. Not because you should
> worry but because they don't get paid otherwise.
>
> Couple of things to consider.
>
> 1) RDp itself is based on open source (Eclipse) so you are already
> taking all of the supposed "risks" just by using it with or without
> the plug ins.
>
> 2) The Apache web server you use on IBM i is open source - same things
> apply.
>
> This really is a no-op that serves no purpose than to allow lawyers to
> line their pockets.
(Continue reading)

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Gmane