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Walden H. Leverich III | 3 Apr 2003 19:57
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Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg o rsqlrpg)

>From: Mark Phippard [mailto:MarkP@...] 
>For changes to servlets or supporting JAR files, or web.xml 
>it will restart the web module.

OK, I'm trying to understand the pieces here. Assume I webface my system. My
"system" means everything  that's on my iSeries now, shipping, receiving,
order entry, purchasing, accounting, HR, etc. I deploy this in WebSphere on
my iSeries. 

Each screen has one (or more?) JSPs. Servlets too? And a JAR?

What restarts when I make a change to a set of programs? The "web module"?
What is that? When that gets restarted what is lost? Sessions? Whose? All my
users? Only those in an "application"? What is an application? AR?
Accounting? 

-Walden

------------
Walden H Leverich III
President
Tech Software
(516) 627-3800 x11
(208) 692-3308 eFax
WaldenL@...
http://www.TechSoftInc.com 

Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.
(Whatever is said in Latin seems profound.)
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Buck Calabro | 3 Apr 2003 20:49

Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg o rsqlrpg)

>OK, I'm trying to understand the pieces here. Assume 
>I webface my system. My "system" means everything  
>that's on my iSeries now, shipping, receiving,
>order entry, purchasing, accounting, HR, etc. 
>I deploy this in WebSphere on my iSeries. 

Yes.  The WF tool has an option to bundle up the entire lot of converted
panels as a WAR or EAR file, which WAS imports as a native Java app.

>Each screen has one (or more?) JSPs. Servlets too? And a JAR?

Each record format has several JSP files with corresponding servlets.  The
exact number depends on whether the rcdfmt is input, output or both.  The
only JAR is the WF runtime.  The MVC model is implemented by JSP-View,
Servlet-Model, WFRun.jar-Controller.  Don't quote me precisely on the name,
but you get the idea.  

>What restarts when I make a change to a set of programs? The 
>"web module"?  What is that? When that gets restarted what 
>is lost? Sessions? Whose? All my users? Only those in an 
>"application"? What is an application? AR? Accounting? 

I can't answer these parts.  Maybe I'll get the time to fire up WAS and try
it.
  --buck
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Joe Pluta | 3 Apr 2003 21:51
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Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg orsqlrpg)

> From: Buck Calabro
>
> >OK, I'm trying to understand the pieces here. Assume
> >I webface my system. My "system" means everything
> >that's on my iSeries now, shipping, receiving,
> >order entry, purchasing, accounting, HR, etc.
> >I deploy this in WebSphere on my iSeries.
>
> Yes.  The WF tool has an option to bundle up the entire lot of converted
> panels as a WAR or EAR file, which WAS imports as a native Java app.

This is one of the problems with WebFacing, IMHO.  The integrated WAR/EAR
file does not coordinate very well with the production environment of most
shops, where programs are independent entities to be modified, tested and
promoted.

> >Each screen has one (or more?) JSPs. Servlets too? And a JAR?
>
> Each record format has several JSP files with corresponding servlets.  The
> exact number depends on whether the rcdfmt is input, output or both.  The
> only JAR is the WF runtime.  The MVC model is implemented by JSP-View,
> Servlet-Model, WFRun.jar-Controller.  Don't quote me precisely on
> the name, but you get the idea.

This is a fundamental flaw in the architecture.  PSC/400 has one JSP and one
XML file per program, and a common servlet for all programs.  Not only does
this make it easy to integrate into change management systems, it's also
works with standard development practices: you can update a single program
independent of all the other programs.
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Buck Calabro | 3 Apr 2003 21:48

Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg o rsqlrpg)

>> Yes.  The WF tool has an option to bundle up the entire lot 
>> of converted panels as a WAR or EAR file, which WAS imports 
>> as a native Java app.
>
>This is one of the problems with WebFacing, IMHO.  The 
>integrated WAR/EAR file does not coordinate very well 
>with the production environment of most shops, where 
>programs are independent entities to be modified, 
>tested and promoted.

There is another option in the WF tool where you can export your objects
individually.

>This gets tricky.  Normally, updating an application 
>means stopping and starting the web server for that 
>application, which brings down all sessions.  

Only if you deploy an EAR/WAR.  If you deploy the individual objects
(exported above) you are essentially replacing one panel at a time and not
disrupting any other panels in the application (A/P, A/R, etc.)  At this
instant, I cannot speak to what happens to the users of that individual
panel as I replace the various components that make it up.

>Unless somebody can tell me different, I equate a 
>web module with an interactive subsystem - when you 
>bring it down, everything comes down.

Sounds right to me.

>And, as you might guess, PSC/400 doesn't have this problem.
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Joe Pluta | 3 Apr 2003 22:40
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Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg orsqlrpg)

> From: Buck Calabro
>
> Neither does WebFacing.  I updated many individual panels without
> having to
> restart the web module.  In my "development/test" mode, I would re-face,
> export as a file system mapped to the iSeries and then run a CL program to
> move the newly deployed objects into the appropriate WAS directory tree.

Um, that's not WebFacing.  That's WebFacing plus Buck Calabro's custom CL.
So, everybody who uses WebFacing has to basically learn the tool to the
degree you did, then write a custom CL program to move the objects around.
And heaven forbid the directory structure should change.

You consider this acceptable for development tool, I do not.

> In PSC/400, that would mean replacing
> the JSP and XML together.  If we managed to replace the JSP, then
> a request
> comes in and served, the XML is out of synch, not having been
> replaced yet.

Not true.  The XML is only loaded when a program is first run for the life
of the app server, or after a reload.  Synchronization is simple in
PSC/400 - replace the XML first, then the JSP.  Flip the application reload
switch.  Done deal.  The JSP BY DESIGN will not be served until the XML is
reloaded.  It's a simple matter of taking the time to do it right.

> This problem is common to all multi-component applications on
> every platform regardless of vendor.
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Buck Calabro | 3 Apr 2003 23:50

Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg o rsqlrpg)

>>I updated many individual panels without having to
>>restart the web module.  

>Um, that's not WebFacing.  That's WebFacing plus Buck 
>Calabro's custom CL.

Windows drag & drop works great if you prefer a mouse, as does the DOS XCOPY
command if you don't.  I use CL because I'm an iSeries guy at heart.  The
point is that WF is not at all limited to the WAR file deployment model.

>So, everybody who uses WebFacing has to basically 
>learn the tool to the degree you did

It seems to me that understanding how things work is the basic job of a
programmer.  It took me less than an hour to figure out where things go.
After all, programmers do it every day putting the appropriate RPG programs,
display files, logicals, etc. in the right library, on the right system.
"To the degree you did" took me under half an hour of looking at the
directory tree.

>> In PSC/400, that would mean replacing the JSP and XML together.  
>> If we managed to replace the JSP, then a request
>> comes in and served, the XML is out of synch, not having been
>> replaced yet.
>
>Not true.  The XML is only loaded when a program is first run 
>for the life of the app server, or after a reload.  Synchronization 
>is simple in PSC/400 - replace the XML first, then the JSP.  Flip the 
>application reload switch.  Done deal.  The JSP BY DESIGN will not be
served
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Joe Pluta | 4 Apr 2003 00:57
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Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg orsqlrpg)

> From: Buck Calabro
>
> Windows drag & drop works great if you prefer a mouse, as does
> the DOS XCOPY
> command if you don't.  I use CL because I'm an iSeries guy at heart.  The
> point is that WF is not at all limited to the WAR file deployment model.

Hey, no problem, Buck.  My point is that this is not integrated into WF,
where it could easily be, don't you think?  No biggie.

> It seems to me that understanding how things work is the basic job of a
> programmer.  It took me less than an hour to figure out where things go.
> After all, programmers do it every day putting the appropriate
> RPG programs,
> display files, logicals, etc. in the right library, on the right system.
> "To the degree you did" took me under half an hour of looking at the
> directory tree.

If you already understand web serving and WebSphere and the IFS, I agree
that you can do what you're saying without a whole lot of work.  It's been
my experience that people who know both green screen programming and
understand the IFS layout of WebSphere are few and far between.  But you're
right, if you do know all those things, it's not hard to then to map a drive
or use WRKLNK or QShell or FTP or something to copy the files around.

> But it's already been served.  The JSP has already rendered an HTML page,
> which somebody is looking at.  The back end RPG program has been changed;
> the parameters to the API calls are different than the form on the HTML.

Users have to be out of the program just as they would on the green screen
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Buck Calabro | 4 Apr 2003 00:54

Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg o rsqlrpg)

>There's no good way to make our opinions even.  

Discussing differences is one of the best ways I learn stuff.  This is one
of those places I think I have some understanding, so a discussion of
alternatives really helps.  I only hope some others have benefitted.

>Each person will have to decide on their own if doing what 
>you're doing is a reasonable thing to ask of an RPG programmer.

And who could argue with that?
  --buck
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Joe Pluta | 4 Apr 2003 01:24
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Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg orsqlrpg)

> From: Buck Calabro
>
> >There's no good way to make our opinions even.
>
> Discussing differences is one of the best ways I learn stuff.  This is one
> of those places I think I have some understanding, so a discussion of
> alternatives really helps.  I only hope some others have benefitted.

Me too.  And I hope EVERYBODY not only successfully WebFaces their entire
application, but also buys not one, but TWO copies of PSC/400 <grin>.

Joe

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Mark Phippard | 4 Apr 2003 01:56

Re: Installing a web change (was: importing a rpg orsqlrpg)


Joe,

Just so it is clear up front, I am not debating whether your architecture
is better than WebFacing, I think you architecture sounds very well
designed and thought out.

I do want to question you on a few points you are raising.

1)  You criticize WebFacing for using war/ear deployment but this comes
straight from J2EE.  Can you explain how you install a PSC/400 application
in WebSphere without packaging it in a war or ear file?

2)  You say that your architecture is easier than WebFacing because you
just have to copy the changed JSP to the server, yet this is exactly the
same way you do it with WebFacing (albeit with a lot more files).  Again,
why is it acceptable when you do it, but unacceptable when Buck does it?

By the way, WebSphere Studio can deploy changes directly to a WebSphere
server.  I am not sure if it worked with the iSeries in 4.x, but I believe
it does with 5.x.  You can definitely do it to remote Windows/Linux servers
in 5.x.  Of course I would recommend using a change control system to do
this, but I am obviously biased.

Mark

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