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Micha Feigin | 1 Mar 2005 01:03
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Re: selling lyx

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:21:44 -0800 (PST)
Rich Shepard <rshepard@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Martin A. Hansen wrote:
> 
> > i am also interested in strong pro/con arguments i can use (i am aware of
> > the feature list etc). please fill in below :o)
> 
> Martin,
> 
> > pros:
> >
> > free
> > well written and intelligent docs
> > superb bibliographies using bibtex
> 
>    I'm an ecologist so perhaps my perspective is aligned with members of your
> group. There are many more reasons to use LyX/LaTeX than those you have
> listed. These include:
> 
>    -- If you define departmental/group standards for reports and other
> documents then no one need pay any attention to formatting; it's done
> automatically for the writer.
> 
>    -- The writer can focus on the content and leave the formatting and page
> layout to the software.
> 
>    -- The printed results are typeset (the unit is the paragraph) rather than
> printed by a word processor (the unit is the line). This visual appeal makes
> the reader more accepting of the document.
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Rich Shepard | 1 Mar 2005 01:37
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Re: selling lyx

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Micha Feigin wrote:

> This can be done also with word using styles, although you still need to work on
> the typesetting at the end, and it can be a real pain since word has a tendency
> to mess things up (although working in layout view, IIRC how its called, make
> that easier).

Micha,

   I've never used winWord (or DOSWord, for that matter). But, I do use
OpenOffice.org Writer when I need to exchange documents with my clients.

   I have a couple of colleagues who write computer-oriented books; they've
been force by publishers (including O'Reilly & Associates!) to submit in
winWord. They really dislike using a word processor. One asked me to teach
him LyX because it was such a painful experience to try to keep formatting
correct while writing. And, putting tables within tables in LaTeX is also
painful; in LyX it's very easy. As much as anything, the output looks
distinctly different (same text, same page layout) when printed from OO.o
and LyX.

> Mathtype can make things easier here but its still a pain to typeset and
> number equations properly.

   I've been told that it still doesn't look as good, but I have no direct
experience with Word.

> At least math journals always point to some file (I don't think that there
> are more then 5 mathematicians in the world that write articles using word
> ;-)
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Jean-Pierre Chretien | 1 Mar 2005 07:48
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Re: selling lyx


[...]
>>3. A latex error can drive one nuts trying to work out what has  happened.

Cannot happen in ERT-free lyx, and is not generally a showstopper
if you export to latex and compile in nonstopmode (when the deadline is for
yesterday I mean, I've produced a *lot* of documents with remaining errors since
I use LaTeX).

In the pros list, you may add
  -- works in batch processing
Other applications generally require a human behind the screen.
Use of LyX/LaTeX in an intranet framework gives spectacular results, as the
source is prone to export to a variety of formats.

--

-- 
Jean-Pierre
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Micha Feigin | 1 Mar 2005 11:29
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Re: selling lyx

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:48:35 +0100 (MET)
Jean-Pierre Chretien <Jean-Pierre.Chretien@...> wrote:

> 
> [...]
> >>3. A latex error can drive one nuts trying to work out what has  happened.
> 
> Cannot happen in ERT-free lyx, and is not generally a showstopper

Yes it can actually. Only happened to me with math formulas and usually takes
quite some time to solve. Last one happened just two days ago, apparently
\underbar doesn't work with greek letters, so \underbar{\nu} cause about five
errors.

> if you export to latex and compile in nonstopmode (when the deadline is for
> yesterday I mean, I've produced a *lot* of documents with remaining errors
since
> I use LaTeX).

Good to know that one, could save my ass at some point ;-)

> 
> In the pros list, you may add
>   -- works in batch processing
> Other applications generally require a human behind the screen.
> Use of LyX/LaTeX in an intranet framework gives spectacular results, as the
> source is prone to export to a variety of formats.
> 
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre
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samar j. singh | 1 Mar 2005 12:35

Re: selling lyx

 "Jean-Pierre Chretien"  wrote
> >>3. A latex error can drive one nuts trying to work out what has
happened.
>
> Cannot happen in ERT-free lyx, and is not generally a showstopper
> if you export to latex and compile in nonstopmode (when the deadline is
for
> yesterday I mean, I've produced a *lot* of documents with remaining errors
since
> I use LaTeX).
As in everything else its a matter of experience. In this case we are
talking about first  time users. One of the  things that gets one is when
you end with a list and lyx seems to complain but there is no useful
feedback. Its the sort of thing that would drive some back to windows
(Heaven alone knows why). I agree that one can  compile under latex but here
we are talking about people who dont know latex.

>
> In the pros list, you may add
>   -- works in batch processing
> Other applications generally require a human behind the screen.
> Use of LyX/LaTeX in an intranet framework gives spectacular results, as
the
> source is prone to export to a variety of formats.
>
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre
>

Not clear what  sort of batch processing you  are referring to in the
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Helge Hafting | 1 Mar 2005 11:08
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Re: selling lyx

Micha Feigin wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:21:44 -0800 (PST)
>Rich Shepard <rshepard@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Martin A. Hansen wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>i am also interested in strong pro/con arguments i can use (i am aware of
>>>the feature list etc). please fill in below :o)
>>>      
>>>
>>Martin,
>>
>>    
>>
>>>pros:
>>>
>>>free
>>>well written and intelligent docs
>>>superb bibliographies using bibtex
>>>      
>>>
>>   I'm an ecologist so perhaps my perspective is aligned with members of your
>>group. There are many more reasons to use LyX/LaTeX than those you have
>>listed. These include:
>>
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Charles de Miramon | 1 Mar 2005 14:04

Re: selling lyx

Pro :
- Lyx is easy to use and stable.
- If you write and rewrite on your screen a long text, using LyX is much
nicer than vim + LaTeX or Kile where a large part of the screen is used by
pointless formatting code.

Con :
- One of the set-back of the Wysiwym model in LyX is copy editing. You copy
edit the printed draft and when you report the corrections of a mispelled
word into LyX it is harder to do because the word position on the line is
different on the print and on the screen.

- You will hit very quickly the ceiling of LyX and have your documents full
of ERT. I remember the first time, I used LyX for my work, I could not find
how to suppress pagination on my handout and cursed a lot LyX half an hour
before starting my lecture. Then I bought a big fat LaTeX manual and read
it and now everything goes smoother.

- LaTeX is hard to debug. Error messages are usually quite meaningless. 

--

-- 
http://www.kde-france.org
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Angus Leeming | 1 Mar 2005 14:14
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Re: selling lyx

Charles de Miramon wrote:
> Con :
> - One of the set-back of the Wysiwym model in LyX is copy editing. You
> copy edit the printed draft and when you report the corrections of a
> mispelled word into LyX it is harder to do because the word position on
> the line is different on the print and on the screen.

Note that this point is no longer true if you use the "change tracking"
patch: http://wiki.lyx.org/Tips/ChangeTrackingLyx1-3-2

--

-- 
Angus
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Juergen Spitzmueller | 1 Mar 2005 14:39
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Re: selling lyx

Angus Leeming wrote:
> > Con :
> > - One of the set-back of the Wysiwym model in LyX is copy editing. You
> > copy edit the printed draft and when you report the corrections of a
> > mispelled word into LyX it is harder to do because the word position on
> > the line is different on the print and on the screen.
>
> Note that this point is no longer true if you use the "change tracking"
> patch: http://wiki.lyx.org/Tips/ChangeTrackingLyx1-3-2

And inverse search, for that matter (in forthcoming 1.4).

Jürgen
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Miki Dovrat | 1 Mar 2005 18:24
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Re: selling lyx

More reasons not previously included:

Very Important pro in selling LyX to windows users: It works great and looks 
great on windows since 1.3.5 and Ruurd Reitsma's port (and even before, 
don't take offense). Previously, the cygwin environment and the "ugly" 
x-forms user interface deterred people... at least in my group.

Word is OK for non-technical documents with not a lot of graphics.

Once you start including cross references, citation references, LyX is much 
easier:
I tried not to laugh when a colleage of mine in the lab discovered that he 
had done a list of about 50 citations in Word in the WRONG format!!! I 
seized the opportunity and showed him how much time this takes in LyX and 
Bibtex styles.

When Word has many graphics included, it starts hanging, many times 
corrupting the file beyond repair. In LyX, if it hangs (once a year or 
less), it leaves a beautiful emergency backup, as well as not corrupting the 
file (which is text only). Documents over 60 pages in word need a lot of 
prayers.

Lyx actually does what you tell it to do, while Word feels it is smarter 
than you and knows for you what you wanted - placement of figures, widows, 
orphans, margins sometimes change by themselves.

For heavy mathematics, people would want to know how much easier it will be 
to type equations in LyX. I always show the keyboard typing shortcuts, which 
you can learn as you type because of the hints, as well as a math panel 
"just like" Word, so you can choose what you prefer.
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Gmane